http://www.msnbc.com/news/605461.asp

interesting article...

Yes it is. Thanks.

Yes, very interesting. One more nail in the Noble Native Myth. Not meaning to belittle natives, just pointing out that they like us are and were both good and bad to the enviroment (unfortunately mostly bad).

Interesting? Sorry, son, no eating today, we have to think about the algae that may overtake the reef if we eat too many turtles. Pretty convenient to blame early islanders for damage to ecosystems. "when we killed off the mammoth, at least we replaced it with cows," and THAT is not wholesale "slaughter"? SO..20 "researchers" say that 3000 years ago, MAN, the DESTROYER of EVERYTHING, killed and ate sea turtles. So would you. So would I. Not very interesting at all.

"Interesting" doesn't always mean definitively correct. It was interesting enough to get you talking about it... I also balk at the idea that it isn't eco-destruction when species are "replaced" by others. The main point didn't seem to be so much that some human excesses are better than others, but that humans have been capable of altering the eco-systems all along. And to some people that's news.

What it proves, for which we should all be grateful, is that Man survives. And one of the ways he survives is by learning. I'm not sure what the good Professor would have talked about if the People starved and the seas multiplied. Maybe the seas would have become so crowded that some finny forefather would have climbed out on land to get some living space. "Mom" is a whale, not " A monkey's yer uncle". After a while, we decide, for whatever reason (and we have several) that we don't have to/want to kill everything everywhere for our needs.Dogs are cute. Cats kill rats. Lobsters taste good. So, we farm, harvest, manage resources. Alter an eco-system?..We're part of the eco-system. Only we're the part that hires professors to find out what we can learn by studying our behaviours. And some profs have a real hard time getting their brain around "survival of the fittest, includes Man"...What if the turtles had become so overpopulated without enemies that some retrovirus got activated. Happens in crowds ya know. Oh Oh..no more turtles in the area...and then fhhhhht, here's that algae...and there goes the neigbourhood. We're just another x factor...and they say the cockroach will survive us. The professor needs an honest job! And we need to take stories like these with a big grain of sea salt. I like that we try to save things when we can. I hate that we're so careless about other creatures lives. Maybe we're the best of the lot...at least so far.We have a right to be here...just like the parrotfish and the turtle...and even that cockroach. My $02.- ? for inflation of ego..........

Interesting points and viewpoints. Here's another one or two. WARNING - this is kinda soapbox stuff, but with taste (I surely hope).

Let's start with the scientists. We have just begun to understand our underwater world, but we do understand that our coral animal friends are very suseptable to minute changes - temperature rises, we get bleaching and if that goes on for longer than 3 months, we get dying. We know that the corals are the mainstay of the sea - without them, there would be no sealife, for it's the corals that allow all the smaller creatures protection so the larger and larger and larger creatures can survive.

River, stream runoffs carry all kinds of nutrients into the sea and propagate algae growth, thus killing off corals. And it goes on and on. But, please don't ever think that a little coral death is okay and part of the survival of the fittest agenda - it isn't. They are sensitive. And, that's why scientists are trying to 'understand' what has happened in the past so they can alert people for the future. The article was more an explanation, not a blame. It showed me a balance of nature is necessary.

Man (and woman) think that being on the top of the food chain gives them wholesale rights to slaughter. Take the buffalo - Native Americans lived with what they needed, then came the Foreign Americans and upset the balance. The sharks, killed for only their fins - upset the balance, tuna - hahaha, bet Dr. Sylvia Earle could almost make you not ever want to eat tuna again - we are killing them off to extinction. That scientist does blame man (very gracefully I might add) and I hope she keeps on strking out, cuz the sea creatures need people like her . If you ever ever have the opportunity to read her book or better yet, hear her speak, don't miss it.

Now, the turtles - overpopulation? Hardly, the seaturtle has been around for 400 million years. That's a lot of breeding to be done, so why not overpopulation? Balance of Nature. Good old Mom made sure that a turtle could lay 150, plus or minus, eggs per nest, 4-5 per season and only nest every other season. That's 750 per female turtle. Only 1 in thousand reaches maturity - being 15-20 years before mating.

Bonaire has 20-40 nesting females - that math works out to 3000-6000 eggs, before poaching. That means if we are lucky, we will see an increase of 3-6 turtles come back after 15-20 years. That's not very many - kill one turtle, you kill at least 18 others (that's direct offspring, now multiply that out) cuz a turtle can live till age 75...now, if the natives of the island wipe out the eggs and turtles, that means they are contributing to the extinction by exponential figures. Should it be stopped and outlawed? There should be laws to protect for the balance of nature, but not outlaw completely - in my opinion.

Let's keep on building resorts and wipe out more nesting beachs, or better yet, bring on those bright lights so the little hatchlings go to the light, not the sea and get eaten by cats, dogs, lizards, run over by cars or stepped on by people. It is happening all over the coastlines of the world. The algae loves that kinda of stuff - less to eat them.

Here in Bali, they kill thousands of sea turtles a year - but arrests are finally being made. (See the Sea Turtle Conservation Bonaire Newsletter (STCB), soon to be published)

Man always goes in excess of the balance and that's why our forests are diminishing, hundreds of species becoming extinct yearly and our seas are dying. We always use the top of the food chain, our survival, etc. as the reason we do things of destruction. Excess, excess, excess. And, we wonder why we always seem to be blamed....mannnn, we're lucky it's only the scientists and not Mom herself - but, she understands the balance of nature and man is part of it .

Sorry for the editorial - it's really not a cry wolf situation here, it's for real. Bonaire is beautiful because people there care and try prevent the distruction before it occurs.

Opppps, sorry about the turtle math. Tried to do quick calculations in the head.... shudda known better .

20 to 40 nesting turtles on Bonaire.
750 eggs per turtle per season
15,000 to 30,000 eggs (over 2 years without poachers, but probably more than half is poached).
1 in 1000 survive (probably worse now with longlines and shrimp nets).
15 to 30 new turtles (before poaching) to return in 15 plus years.

So, why don't we have more nesting turtles if my math is correct now? Poaching is one. Another is regional kills, not so much in Bonaire, though there are many killed per year on Bonaire. Our nesting turtles spend 2 years foraging elsewhere. If they aren't protected there, then they die. The turtles you see (small ones) are foraging and will nest when mature elsewhere. The big ones the locals kill are lots of times the foraging turtles of other islands.

The native islanders didn't know what killing one turtle meant - other than food on the table, but today there are other sources of food. The native islanders were probably shocked when they had no more turtles to eat 3000 years ago...did they starve? Hardly, they found an alternative, but a whole island turtle population was wiped out. No balance, just imbalanced.

Let's see, what do they do with the turtle? They make pretty things from the shells. They make turtle soup and other stuff from the meat. Some cultures drink the blood to enhance their skin. The Ridleys (skins only) become wallets and stuff.

Did you know that 'natives' didn't kill the turtles right away? They put holes in their front flippers and fastened them together so the turtles would just lay there, waiting to be slaughtered in a week, or maybe a month from the capture.

Did you know that the turtles were butchered alive? Yep, helps to get all the blood out for soups. Slit right down the middle, with the sad eyes looking out for help.

At least the sharks die fast, the buffalo were killed instantly. This all for food.....top of the food chain - we kill cuz we can, not cuz we need the food. Sorry, I don't buy into the top of the food chain and survival. Mom had a balance for a reason.

Sorry, I got carried away again...sorry.

Barry, you mentioned "Mom". Here is a sad story from last week.

Storm destroys Sea Turtle nests in Florida

Ellen... Yep, Mom does destroy, but she has an order in mind, I'm sure. I've learned not to question her, but to accept what occurs as the natural order of things.

One storm wipes out one of 4-5 nestings, and maybe that's how she maintains the population. In that case the female is still alive to lay more eggs.

If the storm wipes out the entire beach, then the female has two choices - abort the next set of eggs at sea or seek another beach (another island?). Each nesting comes about 2 weeks apart. Scientists don't know what triggers whether to abort or move on. Females are stubborn and want to nest where they want to nest.

In the case of Lenny, the females just went over the rubble piles and nested behind the rubble from what we could determine. She has this sense of where to nest and a pile of rubble just won't stand in her way .

However, in the case of Playa Grandi where the sands were completely depleted by man, we don't know if those turtles left for another island or not. For all we know, the locals could have depleted the turtles before the beach was ever destroyed.

The beach at one time was large enough to sustain Leatherbacks as were some Southern beaches, but Bonaire no longer has a large enough beach for Leatherbacks.

Loss of habitat - storms, resorts, natural/unnatural erosion - is just as devastating to the turtle as man is.

Barry. Last time you mixed me up with that neurotic hoop-skirted belle of Atlanta, fancy me not recognizing that an apology or a make-good for poor service(if there was poor service) was a violation of a cultural norm. Now you seem to take me for some subspecies unaware of biological necessities. You are just as wrong about that. Sylvia Earle and Jacques Cousteau are the source of my passions. Met him. Not her. I would gladly sit with her and have her tell me anything and everything she cared to.For as long as she cared to. In no way did I indicate that a little coral death was acceptable. Or that killing sea turtles is acceptable. And one more thing. If you want to fight. Fight fair. That turtles were and are killed is one matter. The hideous practices used in their deaths is quite another. All the blood and gore you pile on this page won't make wrong what was right. Or right what was wrong. It's the worst kind of argument, and I believe it loses more friends than it gains. You may disagree with it, but at least for early man as the professor spoke of them, they had no intent. They had no knowlege. Their behaviour had the moral equivalency of a tsunami..none. Today's humans, armed with painfully gathered knowledge are making changes. We will. Because nobody else can. It's this all too common Man as DESTROYER argument I'll take on anytime I see it. It's there, and I'm not going to do a point by point. But there are lots of reasons for it. Some understandable. Some brutal. But why do you want to let turtles and eggs die on the beaches for some mathmatical game of Mom's? As I understand it, eggs were created in excess because of the large losses of eggs, hatchlings etc to weather or natural predators when they enter the sea. Well maybe it's possible for Humans to figure out safety features for the beaches and nests that won't upset Mama Turtle.We can do the educating in Indonesia that says you can build turtle tunnels like the British build Toad Crossings under their roads...and you'll get MORE tourists, from people who like animals! We can make our people aware so that each tourist can be an ambassador for animals. But you get more flies with honey than with vinegar, to coin a cliché. You want to pressure the fishing industry that's catching whale and tuna and everything else..you got my attention. You wanna keep dolphinarium out of the islands and Mexico...I'm on your side. We're learning to move more gently. And the folks who killed the Buffalo also set up 2 pretty rich countries, with generations of educated men and women who devote themselves to making the changes that must be made. Do I wish we could go faster? Infinitely. I won't tell you how many years ago I started my first film to save Dolphins.And I don't plan on posting my bona fides either. A stand to recognize that humans have a legitimate place in the world does not make me anti-environmentalist. I never said anyone was crying wolf. I, just occasionally, mind, would like my brothers and sisters in ecology, to spend a little time leading the helping hands. Not biting them. Well...as somebody else around here says...bad soap box...bad......

Kerri,

I am absolutely shamed at what you perceived as an affront on you. I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to you (and NE).

I'm sorry it appeared that I was attacking you - I wasn't. I was addressing my passion for the turtles and the 'issues' you and NE brought up.

I HIGHLY RESPECT your viewpoints and do not think anything less of you (or NE) for your opinions, nor did I intend to pound on you in public for your opinions. Opinions are neither right nor wrong....they just are.

I also would like to apologize to everyone on BT for the poor display of judgement I exercised. It won't happen again - that's a promise!

Sincerely, with respect.
Barry

Kerri, Barry:

It's OK to shout from a soap box about the destruction mankind causes. You and I know how the balance of nature should be, we know how humans, uneducated and unchecked, can destroy vast areas of nature or wipe out populations. The soap box discussions hopefully cause the under educated, or unaware to pause and think about what they do and what industries they support do to the global ecosystem.

For instance, I personally will not eat shrimp because of the HUGE cost to the environment to harvest in the wild or farm them. Someone reading that statement may take it upon themselves to look into how shrimp are harvested in the wild and what habitats are destroyed to create shrimp farms. Once they learn for themselves, they can decide for themselves whether they want to support that industry.

No one should be bothered by someone else's alarm. Hopefully each and every one of us is alarmed enough by something to change our behaviour, and pass on what we learn to others so they can change, too.

No, I can't change the world, but if I change, and some of my friends change because of me, and my children change, and their children, and some of my friends' friends... you get the idea.

well, i might have caused more trouble than it was worth...two things; one - man has been interacting with nature for some time and not ever necessarily aware (ignorant) of some of the outcomes, two - may be a little to early to judge anyway (at least some chance things have been occurring as they should - no one is wrong perhaps)

whatever,

Barry, what lack of judgement? I enjoyed every word and from my perspective please jump on the soap box any time you feel the need. One of the things I really appreciated was the numbers to prove your point, all to often in discussions about the enviroment all we get is inflamatory rhetoric with out any real science to back up the talk. The best answer for nature and us is out there if we keep looking.

Kerri, also good stuff.

John, that is a surprise about the shrimp farming. I've always thought that raising an animal for food has to be better than killing one of Mom's animals. Beef is better than fish for the enviroment, a cow is a man's invention, not so for the tuna (yes, I am aware of the cutting of the rain forrests for range land, which makes no sense to me).

John....by the way, your post was well said. Thanks.

Anon....nahhhh, it was a good post. You didn't start anything...keep those neat things coming.

Cecil...thanks. I have to tame my emotions and become a bit more sensible. Speaking of clearing land...man, over here in Indonesia it's terrible. I have to admit one thing, though, after taking a 6 hour train ride across Java last year, they do not waste one bit of the land they cleared. It is used from base to hilltop - from rice to potatoes/lettuce. It's incredible...but, they are still burning and it actually causes health hazards in Singapore and Mayaysia. We don't get too much of it here in Jakarta. And, it does sadden me to know how many species have been eliminated or pushed out of their natural habitat.

I have enjoyed this post.. Obviously, this topic has aroused a lot of emotions, and understandably so.. here's what I have to say..

Unfortunately eliminating turtle trade completely causes serious hardship to some cultures. The Japanese support some of their economy with turtle shell products, German soup makers depend on calipee for turtle soup and in Nicaragua turtle hunting is a way to make a living.

There are many organisations out there for example: the WSPA, Turtle Farm, Cayman Islands, and amongst others the STRP who are making an effort to save the species.. we can be thankful for that.. I believe we must think positivly at all times.. at least the population stands a good chance of survival all the while breeding takes place.. and there's plenty of that at the Turtle Farm in GC..

Methods have been researched and implemented to help protect the species, and guaranteed contact time during nesting and hatching is used to effectively tag them. Unfortunately tags attached to shells during mating season ended up being useless as the mating ritual between male and female turtles is exceptionally violent!!Hopefully in the future using tags on these creatures will provide information on their migration, their lifestyle, and insights to their survival.

Without doubt the tourist industry is a major cause of the decline in turtle populations throughout the world. But as the world's biggest industry, generating billions of dollars from millions of customers every year, it is well placed to make the changes needed to help ensure the survival of one of the planet's most ancient and mysterious creatures..

On a final note, it's not always good to ruminate, we must look forward..

Please visit: www.seaturtles.org/


Green Sea Turtles Mating..

Dear Barry: I wouldn't have you any other way! Your passion about what you know is what makes you so interesting to listen to. You can feel it in your posts. A rigorous intellectual exercise is good for what ails us. Anon.,all of us are front-line observers in the battle for the seas. If we weren't interested who the hell would be. I personally think a lot of us enjoy this kind of information.And discussion. John, I didn't know about shrimp...but I will. It is difficult to defend Man's role sometimes. Item: Monarch Butterflies...Linda R., Glen and myself among others, were pleased last year that the U.S., Can. and Mex. had signed an agreement to protect Monarch habitat. This weekend I received information that 22 million Monarchs were deliberately killed in Mex.Believed to be by the wood cutters in Mex. who wanted jobs cutting down the trees where the Monarchs lived, west of Mexico City, home of 2 of the Monarch's five sanctuaries. Their 'Evil', is wanting to feed their families. Although I don't feel kindly about them at the moment, if there is a better way, we must make it apparent. It is my belief that deifying animals and vilifying Man misses the point of the argument. Competing life forms need room to exist. We need to make sustainable growth a reality. And some species are running out of time. We're on the same side, I suspect. And if I can't take the heat, I should couch my opinions in velvet. Good teachers are hard to find....so quit beating up on mine!

Sarah (and all others):

I like the turtle picture. If we all spent more time like that, there would be less time to mess up the eco-system... ;-)

John: Betcha get 100% agreement on that!

One of the most powerfull statements on sustainability was told to me when I was in elementry school, a teacher put a yardstick on a map of the US, up the Mississippi Valley and told us that all the food and agricultural products required by the US were grown inside the yardstick. This was in the early 60's. I always wondered about that statement but was never able to prove it invalid. We have come a long way from every square inch of land required just to feed ourselves. The state where I live (New Hampshire) used to be all farm land, no trees. Now it is reverting to all forest land, very few farms. It's very strange to be hiking miles out into the woods and come upon an old stone wall and think this used to be somebody's farm. The new forests are doing very well and alot of the orginal bio-diversity is returning. I've heard that there are more dear now than when the Mayflower landed. All is not perfect though, we still have urban sprawl, very few old growth forests, some toxic left overs from the industrial past, and very little at the top of the food chain (some bears, some coyotes, no wolves).

No offense taken, maybe because I'm not smart enough to have encountered any offense. Good for me, I think. I just grow so tired of humans being portrayed as the destroyers of everything. Life finds a way, it always has.

One of the dilimmas over here is trying to fill in the jobs lost with the closing of the turtle slaughter houses. A few slaughter houses are employment to some 300 families. They don't earn much, but it puts rice on their tables.

The excuse over the past 30 years was that turtles were used for religious and traditional ceremonies, in addition to the employment.

Well, the Bhuddist (?) priests got together with an NGO (WWF) or two and proclaimed that only 100 turtles annually were necessary. That and other factors (tourism) gave strength for the police to start arresting people. They are finding jobs for the displaced workers.

I agree that some cultures need the turtle and as I advocated - that's okay, as long as there is balance.

I guess early man's thinking is like today's man - with all that water, there must be a never ending supply of sea creatures. It's today's man and woman that are finding that just isn't so....and that erroneously makes it look like mans fault (which in some cases he is the villian - sharks, whales, dolphins and longline fishing).

The only fault, in my opinion, is not reacting accordingly when the discovery is found. It all comes down to balance vs. excess/needless killing.

Great pic, John. I had a pic in my slide show that had a close up of the male's eye....it looked like he was near the 8 hour limit for sure .

I remember we were coming back from a research survey in the marine reserve when we came upon two mating turtles. They broke it off and as we just drifted there, he would come up in one spot, she in another and it seemed like they both looked in our direction with - well, when are you guys gonna leave?

Side note: Ever wonder how the fisherman catch turtles alive? They make a piece of wood that looks like a female turtle and they then float it along side their boats. The horny male approaches and is captured in a net. The boats sometimes stay out for weeks before they return home. Most of the captured turtles are still alive.

I'm pretty sure Barry has never seen this website. And to be truthful, I've read only bits..When I had to leave the discussion before, the founder of VHEMT was being interviewed. What's VHEMT? Voluntary Human Extinction Movement Founded 25 years ago. Here's the site: www.VHEMT.org You decide.

Kerri, the lastest Clancey novel has that as a theme.

Barry what is happening in your country? Floods during the dry season (CNN Story), Mommy striking back. Notice that the disaster was made worse by deforresting.

Thanks Cec. Will have a look. Sounds like a good read. Anyway, the founder claims that there are more extremes at the edge of the movement who's motto is 'Save the earth.kill yourself'.

Kerri, I'll check that site out later. I'm in the middle of a of boxes cuz we just moved yesterday. Bigger place, more walking barefoot on tile - hurts the old feet and legs. I thought I was in shape - ha!

Cecil, I had a chance to read the article. Interesting to say the least. I wouldn't wonder that the deforresting contributed to it. When they clear, it looks like a 'clearcut' mountain in the states, but unlike the states, they immediately start to terrace and plant. Aside from the devastation, it is very beautiful to see. They really do utilize and it is necessary to survive. This are not rich people.

My maid comes from a village and only asked for $25 a month to work 7 days a week, no time off until her 2 week religous holiday. Don't worry, she eats good and has a fairly large room to sleep and watch TV. She's happy with us.

So, farming is all many of them have. It's a pity that when Mom strikes out, we humans seem to suffer the most.

Most of the Indonesians don't know any better about cutting....illegal teak lumbering goes unencombered because it's hard to enforce and the corruption is rampant.

When they aren't cutting off heads in Borneo, they are killing off the forest and wiping out the Orangutans (sp) - Jake, where's the spellcheck - my dictionary is hidden in a box and the maid can't read English...bummer.

And, just like on Bonaire, the local people do not like to be told that what they have been doing for generations is bad for the environment. It's sad, but they can only think of themselves and their familes....that's their way of life.

It does make it hard to combat the damage to the environment when we are also combating generations of culture.

http://www.propagandaculture.com/users/weirdemma/episodes.html#

check out the movie "my nature" ...you need the macromedia flash player...

Thanks Anon. Webster reads some 'Flash' but not the movies. Apparently, he doesn't do 'download'. But, I'll bookmark it for future reference. ..... And, as a not out of the way, 'BTW'....... my apologies are due this board, its' writers and 'lurkers' et al. It take two to argue, and only one of us has issued his apology. So, herewith, mine. Not as gracious as Barry's, but as sincerely meant. I hope, at least, the debate had the merit of being about something we cared about, and in no way indicated disrespect for each other. Or any of you. Kerri

Barry, that is tough about fighting culture, you could try pointing out Easter Island where a vibrate culture was destroyed by ecological diaster. They can not keep doing it the way it was always done.

Kerri, I must of missed something, you have nothing to apologize about (nor did Barry).

I watched three hours of David Attenbourough last night and I filled with enviromental zeal today. Bring on those polluters, I'll kick their whatevers.

Thank you, Cecil. And never underestimate a good kick in the 'whatevers'. As someone once said: 'First,you have to get their attention'. ....

Everythng's cool here for me

Re: "Ecology"

An interesting "global" perspective is offered by
Elisabet Sahtouris on the web. The complete text of her book "Earthdance" can be downloaded free from:

http://ratical.org/LifeWeb/Erthdnce/

Cheers,

Bill

Bill and Cheryl, thanks very much for the reference. I'm hoping to be able to download it soon. Particularly because of its reference to the Gaia Theory. Welcome to BonaireTalk and "the boards" Kerri