By Anonymous on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 11:31 am: |
http://www.msnbc.com/news/605461.asp
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By Niki Harris on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 12:31 pm: |
Yes it is. Thanks.
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By Cecil Berry on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 2:05 pm: |
Yes, very interesting. One more nail in the Noble Native Myth. Not meaning to belittle natives, just pointing out that they like us are and were both good and bad to the enviroment (unfortunately mostly bad).
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By Northern Exposure on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 2:41 pm: |
Interesting? Sorry, son, no eating today, we have to think about the algae that may overtake the reef if we eat too many turtles. Pretty convenient to blame early islanders for damage to ecosystems. "when we killed off the mammoth, at least we replaced it with cows," and THAT is not wholesale "slaughter"? SO..20 "researchers" say that 3000 years ago, MAN, the DESTROYER of EVERYTHING, killed and ate sea turtles. So would you. So would I. Not very interesting at all.
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By Niki Harris on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 5:33 pm: |
"Interesting" doesn't always mean definitively correct. It was interesting enough to get you talking about it... I also balk at the idea that it isn't eco-destruction when species are "replaced" by others. The main point didn't seem to be so much that some human excesses are better than others, but that humans have been capable of altering the eco-systems all along. And to some people that's news.
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By Kerri Freeman on Friday, July 27, 2001 - 7:10 pm: |
What it proves, for which we should all be grateful, is that Man survives. And one of the ways he survives is by learning. I'm not sure what the good Professor would have talked about if the People starved and the seas multiplied. Maybe the seas would have become so crowded that some finny forefather would have climbed out on land to get some living space. "Mom" is a whale, not " A monkey's yer uncle". After a while, we decide, for whatever reason (and we have several) that we don't have to/want to kill everything everywhere for our needs.Dogs are cute. Cats kill rats. Lobsters taste good. So, we farm, harvest, manage resources. Alter an eco-system?..We're part of the eco-system. Only we're the part that hires professors to find out what we can learn by studying our behaviours. And some profs have a real hard time getting their brain around "survival of the fittest, includes Man"...What if the turtles had become so overpopulated without enemies that some retrovirus got activated. Happens in crowds ya know. Oh Oh..no more turtles in the area...and then fhhhhht, here's that algae...and there goes the neigbourhood. We're just another x factor...and they say the cockroach will survive us. The professor needs an honest job! And we need to take stories like these with a big grain of sea salt. I like that we try to save things when we can. I hate that we're so careless about other creatures lives. Maybe we're the best of the lot...at least so far.We have a right to be here...just like the parrotfish and the turtle...and even that cockroach. My $02.- ? for inflation of ego..........
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By Barry Gassert on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 9:44 pm: |
Interesting points and viewpoints. Here's another one or two. WARNING - this is kinda soapbox stuff, but with taste (I surely hope).
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By Barry Gassert on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 2:20 am: |
Opppps, sorry about the turtle math. Tried to do quick calculations in the head.... shudda known better .
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By Ellen Muller on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 12:05 pm: |
Barry, you mentioned "Mom". Here is a sad story from last week.
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By Barry Gassert on Monday, July 30, 2001 - 9:11 pm: |
Ellen... Yep, Mom does destroy, but she has an order in mind, I'm sure. I've learned not to question her, but to accept what occurs as the natural order of things.
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By Kerri Freeman on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 6:21 am: |
Barry. Last time you mixed me up with that neurotic hoop-skirted belle of Atlanta, fancy me not recognizing that an apology or a make-good for poor service(if there was poor service) was a violation of a cultural norm. Now you seem to take me for some subspecies unaware of biological necessities. You are just as wrong about that. Sylvia Earle and Jacques Cousteau are the source of my passions. Met him. Not her. I would gladly sit with her and have her tell me anything and everything she cared to.For as long as she cared to. In no way did I indicate that a little coral death was acceptable. Or that killing sea turtles is acceptable. And one more thing. If you want to fight. Fight fair. That turtles were and are killed is one matter. The hideous practices used in their deaths is quite another. All the blood and gore you pile on this page won't make wrong what was right. Or right what was wrong. It's the worst kind of argument, and I believe it loses more friends than it gains. You may disagree with it, but at least for early man as the professor spoke of them, they had no intent. They had no knowlege. Their behaviour had the moral equivalency of a tsunami..none. Today's humans, armed with painfully gathered knowledge are making changes. We will. Because nobody else can. It's this all too common Man as DESTROYER argument I'll take on anytime I see it. It's there, and I'm not going to do a point by point. But there are lots of reasons for it. Some understandable. Some brutal. But why do you want to let turtles and eggs die on the beaches for some mathmatical game of Mom's? As I understand it, eggs were created in excess because of the large losses of eggs, hatchlings etc to weather or natural predators when they enter the sea. Well maybe it's possible for Humans to figure out safety features for the beaches and nests that won't upset Mama Turtle.We can do the educating in Indonesia that says you can build turtle tunnels like the British build Toad Crossings under their roads...and you'll get MORE tourists, from people who like animals! We can make our people aware so that each tourist can be an ambassador for animals. But you get more flies with honey than with vinegar, to coin a cliché. You want to pressure the fishing industry that's catching whale and tuna and everything else..you got my attention. You wanna keep dolphinarium out of the islands and Mexico...I'm on your side. We're learning to move more gently. And the folks who killed the Buffalo also set up 2 pretty rich countries, with generations of educated men and women who devote themselves to making the changes that must be made. Do I wish we could go faster? Infinitely. I won't tell you how many years ago I started my first film to save Dolphins.And I don't plan on posting my bona fides either. A stand to recognize that humans have a legitimate place in the world does not make me anti-environmentalist. I never said anyone was crying wolf. I, just occasionally, mind, would like my brothers and sisters in ecology, to spend a little time leading the helping hands. Not biting them. Well...as somebody else around here says...bad soap box...bad......
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By Barry Gassert on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 7:12 am: |
Kerri,
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By John P. Wahlig on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 8:25 am: |
Kerri, Barry:
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By Anonymous on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 8:26 am: |
well, i might have caused more trouble than it was worth...two things; one - man has been interacting with nature for some time and not ever necessarily aware (ignorant) of some of the outcomes, two - may be a little to early to judge anyway (at least some chance things have been occurring as they should - no one is wrong perhaps)
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By Cecil Berry on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 9:36 am: |
Barry, what lack of judgement? I enjoyed every word and from my perspective please jump on the soap box any time you feel the need. One of the things I really appreciated was the numbers to prove your point, all to often in discussions about the enviroment all we get is inflamatory rhetoric with out any real science to back up the talk. The best answer for nature and us is out there if we keep looking.
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By Barry Gassert on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 10:29 am: |
John....by the way, your post was well said. Thanks.
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By Sarah on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 11:22 am: |
I have enjoyed this post.. Obviously, this topic has aroused a lot of emotions, and understandably so.. here's what I have to say..
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By Kerri Freeman on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:37 pm: |
Dear Barry: I wouldn't have you any other way! Your passion about what you know is what makes you so interesting to listen to. You can feel it in your posts. A rigorous intellectual exercise is good for what ails us. Anon.,all of us are front-line observers in the battle for the seas. If we weren't interested who the hell would be. I personally think a lot of us enjoy this kind of information.And discussion. John, I didn't know about shrimp...but I will. It is difficult to defend Man's role sometimes. Item: Monarch Butterflies...Linda R., Glen and myself among others, were pleased last year that the U.S., Can. and Mex. had signed an agreement to protect Monarch habitat. This weekend I received information that 22 million Monarchs were deliberately killed in Mex.Believed to be by the wood cutters in Mex. who wanted jobs cutting down the trees where the Monarchs lived, west of Mexico City, home of 2 of the Monarch's five sanctuaries. Their 'Evil', is wanting to feed their families. Although I don't feel kindly about them at the moment, if there is a better way, we must make it apparent. It is my belief that deifying animals and vilifying Man misses the point of the argument. Competing life forms need room to exist. We need to make sustainable growth a reality. And some species are running out of time. We're on the same side, I suspect. And if I can't take the heat, I should couch my opinions in velvet. Good teachers are hard to find....so quit beating up on mine!
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By John P. Wahlig on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:47 pm: |
Sarah (and all others):
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By Kerri Freeman on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 12:59 pm: |
John: Betcha get 100% agreement on that!
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By Cecil Berry on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 1:27 pm: |
One of the most powerfull statements on sustainability was told to me when I was in elementry school, a teacher put a yardstick on a map of the US, up the Mississippi Valley and told us that all the food and agricultural products required by the US were grown inside the yardstick. This was in the early 60's. I always wondered about that statement but was never able to prove it invalid. We have come a long way from every square inch of land required just to feed ourselves. The state where I live (New Hampshire) used to be all farm land, no trees. Now it is reverting to all forest land, very few farms. It's very strange to be hiking miles out into the woods and come upon an old stone wall and think this used to be somebody's farm. The new forests are doing very well and alot of the orginal bio-diversity is returning. I've heard that there are more dear now than when the Mayflower landed. All is not perfect though, we still have urban sprawl, very few old growth forests, some toxic left overs from the industrial past, and very little at the top of the food chain (some bears, some coyotes, no wolves).
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By Northern Exposure on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 3:37 pm: |
No offense taken, maybe because I'm not smart enough to have encountered any offense. Good for me, I think. I just grow so tired of humans being portrayed as the destroyers of everything. Life finds a way, it always has.
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By Barry Gassert on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 7:25 pm: |
One of the dilimmas over here is trying to fill in the jobs lost with the closing of the turtle slaughter houses. A few slaughter houses are employment to some 300 families. They don't earn much, but it puts rice on their tables.
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By Barry Gassert on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 7:32 pm: |
Great pic, John. I had a pic in my slide show that had a close up of the male's eye....it looked like he was near the 8 hour limit for sure .
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By Kerri Freeman on Wednesday, August 1, 2001 - 12:34 am: |
I'm pretty sure Barry has never seen this website. And to be truthful, I've read only bits..When I had to leave the discussion before, the founder of VHEMT was being interviewed. What's VHEMT? Voluntary Human Extinction Movement Founded 25 years ago. Here's the site: www.VHEMT.org You decide.
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By Cecil Berry on Wednesday, August 1, 2001 - 10:33 am: |
Kerri, the lastest Clancey novel has that as a theme.
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By Kerri Freeman on Wednesday, August 1, 2001 - 11:51 am: |
Thanks Cec. Will have a look. Sounds like a good read. Anyway, the founder claims that there are more extremes at the edge of the movement who's motto is 'Save the earth.kill yourself'.
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By Barry Gassert on Wednesday, August 1, 2001 - 9:50 pm: |
Kerri, I'll check that site out later. I'm in the middle of a of boxes cuz we just moved yesterday. Bigger place, more walking barefoot on tile - hurts the old feet and legs. I thought I was in shape - ha!
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By Anonymous on Thursday, August 2, 2001 - 8:48 am: |
http://www.propagandaculture.com/users/weirdemma/episodes.html#
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By Kerri Freeman on Thursday, August 2, 2001 - 12:41 pm: |
Thanks Anon. Webster reads some 'Flash' but not the movies. Apparently, he doesn't do 'download'. But, I'll bookmark it for future reference. ..... And, as a not out of the way, 'BTW'....... my apologies are due this board, its' writers and 'lurkers' et al. It take two to argue, and only one of us has issued his apology. So, herewith, mine. Not as gracious as Barry's, but as sincerely meant. I hope, at least, the debate had the merit of being about something we cared about, and in no way indicated disrespect for each other. Or any of you. Kerri
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By Cecil Berry on Thursday, August 2, 2001 - 3:04 pm: |
Barry, that is tough about fighting culture, you could try pointing out Easter Island where a vibrate culture was destroyed by ecological diaster. They can not keep doing it the way it was always done.
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By Kerri Freeman on Thursday, August 2, 2001 - 8:01 pm: |
Thank you, Cecil. And never underestimate a good kick in the 'whatevers'. As someone once said: 'First,you have to get their attention'. ....
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By Barry Gassert on Thursday, August 2, 2001 - 8:47 pm: |
Everythng's cool here for me
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By Bill & Cheryl Rathborne on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 12:26 pm: |
Re: "Ecology"
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By Kerri Freeman on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 2:22 pm: |
Bill and Cheryl, thanks very much for the reference. I'm hoping to be able to download it soon. Particularly because of its reference to the Gaia Theory. Welcome to BonaireTalk and "the boards" Kerri
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