By Elliot Burke (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 1:26 pm: |
We have been staying for a couple of weeks a year in Bonaire for the last ten years, mostly for a week or more at Sorobon, renting a car and enjoying the restaurants. We enjoy the quiet lazy uncomplicated lifestyle at Sorobon, but it seems we feel we really should make other choices. We can afford to pay but we feel as though the price structure overall in Bonaire is now approaching price gouging. So we will opt for Dominican Republic, Brazil, or wherever this year.
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1225) on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 1:44 pm: |
You're right, it's too expensive, everybody stay away.
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #161) on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 3:49 pm: |
Seb.....ur telling tails again.
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By Marcus L. Barnes (BonaireTalker - Post #77) on Thursday, January 1, 2004 - 7:40 pm: |
I agree with Seb!
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By bob caat (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 9:27 am: |
In Rio (Brazil) after 10:00 PM drivers can treat a red light like a stop sign. They made this change because they do not want cars sitting still at night due to the high crime rate. This should give you an idea about the crime in Rio.
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By Darryl Vleeming (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #252) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
It sounds like you're not a diver Elliot, and that would certainly have an impact on how you view the costs. For divers, paying $100 a week for unlimited diving, it makes things look like a pretty good deal. . .
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By Elliot Burke (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 11:26 am: |
Hell I've been to Rio many times, Newark New Jersey is worse.
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By Darryl Vleeming (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #255) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 11:36 am: |
Don't be so bitter Elliot . . .
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #163) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 11:51 am: |
Obviously Elliot
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1231) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 2:51 pm: |
So are you just looking for people to agree with you Elliot? This is a discussion board, so when you make statements that others disagree with they will probably chime in with their opinions. That's called discussion. I don't agree with you, but I really don't care what you believe. I'm happy for you to not go to Bonaire, and anyone else who doesn't go is OK by me too. More room for me. If you're not looking for a discussion, don't make unsubstantiated claims that others have hard evidence to prove untrue.
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By Bob Liguori (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #208) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 3:35 pm: |
Hi Elliot,
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By Marcus L. Barnes (BonaireTalker - Post #78) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:00 pm: |
When I post a message, I do it knowing there will probably be a response good or bad. Don't want to hear it - don't post a message.
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By Josie (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #868) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:01 pm: |
Elliot, I'm on Bonaire for five weeks, my sixth trip. We stay at Bonaire Town Homes, which is great, VERY reasonable, accommodation, eat out one meal a day --- and have a great, budget vacation.
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By Cynde Loo Hoo (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10024) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 4:02 pm: |
Seb, I agree...Bonaire is too expensive so everyone just stay home The food is actually cheaper than it is here in Southern California, which we find splendid And I can't say that I've had a bad meal anyplace on the island...but I'm still searching
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By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2983) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 5:34 pm: |
Cynde, I actually had a real bad meal...
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By Carole Baker (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3014) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 6:19 pm: |
Did I hear "Mimi"???? LOL!! It wasn't me, Seb....I swear! LOL. Carole
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1232) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 6:24 pm: |
Ah so, the mist clears, it's that elephant thing again, Elliot's just been feeling one part and missed the rest of the elephant.
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By pat murphy (BonaireTalker - Post #78) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 7:33 pm: |
i must add my agreement with seb and cynde...bonaire is outrageously expensive, unsafe, and unfriendly...please stay away. and elliot, regarding your comparing rio and newark---i would rather vacation on bonaire than newark. but you're entitled to your opinion....but please keep in mind what they say about opinions.
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By Carole Baker (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3017) on Friday, January 2, 2004 - 9:19 pm: |
At this rate there will only be about three of us going to Bonaire.....hmmmmm....I think I LIKE that way of thinking! LOL. (couldn't resist...sorry guys.) Carole
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By Jan Klos (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #226) on Saturday, January 3, 2004 - 11:13 am: |
I think that it goes without saying things are just more expensive now then they were 10 years ago or even 1 year ago. I remember our 1st trip to Bonaire back in 1990. $550 for 2 including airfare- stayed at the now closed Sunset Beach. I do beleive that anywhere you go in the Caribbean, costs have risen. 8 years or so ago... Turks & Caicos was very reasonable. The Domincan 2 or 3 years ago was dirt cheap, and Mexico.....Costs have risen.... Until we purchased a home in Bonaire.. we always went to different places... and mostly we looked at what gave us the most for our $$.
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By v.cioffletti (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 2:22 am: |
Having made my first trip to Bonaire this Dec., had been to Aruba in March, and Puerto Rico multiple times in past two years (daughter and family were living there), I don't think Bonaire struck me as expensive at all. We did a package through Expedia, RT airfare for each of us from Chicago to Bonaire (stop in Montego Bay)and a Sat to Sat stay at Divi was $880 a piece. We got a room with a small kitchenette, so we generally out ate for dinner each night - except the night we stayed at Divi after snorkeling all day, were too tired to go out, so we drank beer and ate our chocolate supply! LOL! And, neither one of us is a diver, just snorkeling, we'd both go back. We WILL GO BACK!
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By Carole Baker (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3029) on Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 9:41 am: |
Nice deal! Carole
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #118) on Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 4:45 pm: |
Hey, You should be like me, the ultimate "cheap" Canadian. I wait for seat sales, use airmiles, take my own gear, cook my own food and don't eat out- Oh! maybe the Tues out with BTers, tip the minimum and diving at 100/week is SOOOOO cheap. Let me know if I missed anything! We were in Cabo San Lucas in October and paid 75.00 for a 2 tank dive/each - only did one! plus we HAD to tip the boat captain and divemaster. Bonaire, see you in February!! YeeeeeHaaaaa! EH!
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10039) on Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 4:51 pm: |
Lorraine, who did you dive with? Where did you stay? Both times we've been there we dove with Amigos Del Mar...and NOTHING in Cabo is cheap! Not even the tequilla! It was more expensive down there than it was at our local market!
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By DIVER DEBBI (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #344) on Sunday, January 4, 2004 - 11:17 pm: |
agree with Lorraine...in Bonaire you have many options that are not available on other islands..the shore diving packages make it affordable to dive vs. paying for boats..shopping at the markets and finding local resturants..patronizing the higher priced establishments when we can afford it, makes for a vacation we can return to...
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By Mercy Baron (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #125) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 2:34 pm: |
I've also been to quite a few Caribbean islands, Turks & Caicos, Grand Cayman, Cancun, and just finished up my 3rd trip to Bon in 18 mos...and they all cost a good deal depending on how you want to go. Some like to cook their own meals and some like to eat out a lot. I eat out a lot even here in Los Angeles so I'm not going to cook on vacation!
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1244) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 2:36 pm: |
Even naked people can carry a lot of baggage.
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #119) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 5:59 pm: |
Cynde, Thanks for asking about Cabo. I'm an expert on Cabo (being the cheap Canadian that I am!) I'll e-mail you direct with some tips. Our best friends have been to Cabo and hated it and will never go back but I LOVE Cabo and I LOVE Bonaire. They both offer something so different to each other. I prefer Bonaire though because of the slower pace of life so I have to save up longer to get there as we live in the "armpit of the world" when it comes to traveling anywhere.
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10063) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 6:08 pm: |
Lorraine, we've been there twice, like I said, and we won't be going back. It was expensive, and the street and beach vendors, and time share vendors were ruthless...I finally had Michael teach me how to say "I don't speak English" in German so that when they approached us, I just spit that out and they looked at us funny and left us alone! Growing up on the American Mexican border, we've been to Mexico and Baja numerous times, and I have to say that we probably won't ever go back to Cabo because it is so crowded and annoying! Amigos Del Mar is a good dive operation though! Kevin the manager is a hoot!
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By Linnea Wijkhof-Wimberly (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #602) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 6:38 pm: |
La Paz is much more like Bonaire in feel, even though it is a fair sized town. Baja Expeditions operates liveaboards and day boats from there. They had have ads in Scuba Diving and Skin Diving.
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #168) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 7:23 pm: |
OK, I've watched the rather bizarre meanderings of this conversation and I have a couple of questions for the deities and well posted among us:
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10067) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 7:34 pm: |
CheezyJoe...a post without a count-down to days left??? You're slipping boy!
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By Tom Cousino (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #315) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 7:41 pm: |
Joe,
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #120) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 7:55 pm: |
All I know about Mimi is that when I first started "lurking" on BT I was shocked at her antagonistic postings and it kept me from jumping right in on the chats! :-)
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10068) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 8:05 pm: |
Linda, 55F is our limit on diving in the cold. We don't have dry suits, and I can last about 20 minutes in 55F degree water, then I'm ready to get out!
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By Carole Baker (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3033) on Monday, January 5, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
Oh, no.....not Mimi!!! LOL! I'll let someone else cover this one.....I got too personally involved (not by choice, either) with Mimi and her antics.....Oh, Mimi....are you lurking out there somewhere?? Carole
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1246) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:24 am: |
Why you folk try to summon her is beyond me. If I had my way, you wouldn't be able to type her name here.
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By Tom Starkweather (BonaireTalker - Post #42) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:44 am: |
With the guilder being attached to the USD and the euro gaining more than 40% on the dollar in the last 18 months Bonaire is one hell of a deal for the Europeans. I am suprised the the tourist boom isn't much larger with almost every major currency in the world gaining significantly on the USD. I only wish I was a European to take advantage of this...
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #169) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 12:48 am: |
Cynde
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #170) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 1:11 am: |
Did a search and read some of the comments from the "unspoken "m" person". WOW.....I didn't know that my second grade teacher was still around.
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #120) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 11:39 am: |
Cynde, Sorry about your Cabo experience but I totally understand as most people I have spoken to have had the same experience. My Mom and Dad stopped there on a cruise and she couldn't stop telling me how much she hated it. We on the other hand stop and talk to these timeshare floggers and have fun with it. I decided to go shopping for shoes one day in the back streets and my husband stayed at the pool. When I told my Mom, she flipped a lid. Cabo(or any Mexico)diving is expensive because of the boat thing. That's what is so AWESOME about Bonaire. No Boats! At home I dive in a drysuit from a Zodiac in 50 degree water so Bonaire is freedom. What's not to love!
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10073) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 3:15 pm: |
Lorraine, the diving was good, and the accommodations the second time were great (free). The first trip down we went for the Skin Diver magazine dive fiesta, and I won first prize...one week in Cabo at the Plaza Bonita Rose time share. Five star, it was fabulous. We rented jet skis, I went parasailing, diving both times...but the hassles of the vendors was just too annoying. There are other places in Mexico and Baja where we've gone that are much more low key (La Paz for one) that we would rather go to
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By Denise Kacavas (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #643) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 4:42 pm: |
this has been a somewhat amusing thread!
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By Mary Mueller (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1298) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 5:33 pm: |
Denise - I too have been reading and chuckling over this thread. It is nice to know that everyone can post their opinion and that there are different opinions out there!!!
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10074) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 6:14 pm: |
Mary, go in July when Kelly and I will be there You can dive with us...in purple hats and thongs...the reef will never be the same
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By Mary Mueller (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1305) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 6:23 pm: |
Cynde - July would be the best month for me - Baseball ends at the end of June and it is before school starts. Need to bring my family this time.
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10075) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 6:33 pm: |
I just had a good chuckle thinking of this thread too...good place for everyone to post all the places they don't like, and why they like Bonaire the best...LOL!
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #122) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 8:41 pm: |
Ummmmm Lobster at the "Trailer Park". Best I've ever had!!!
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10078) on Tuesday, January 6, 2004 - 9:11 pm: |
Linda, you can say that again!
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By Gail Thomas (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #127) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 8:36 am: |
I'm there the 10th - 17th. We'll have to do a Gibi's nite for sure.
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #124) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 2:27 pm: |
We used to go down to Cabo for the Bisbee Fishing Tournament. Loved our accommodations - can't remember the name but was a cottage type unit built into the sand on three sides. The window side made it so you could watch the sun come up from bed...wonderful. Also loved "The Office" but not the cruise ships every morning and the crowds that they brought into town. Nor the hurry up attitude. Cabo just is not my style....I love the peaceful, friendly attitude of Bonaire. And to return to the subject of this thread...it's less expensive than most of our previous destinations. Other than airfare (which we find extreme $$$ from Colorado) Bonaire is much more reasonable than Cabo, etc. :-)
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10089) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 3:06 pm: |
Linda...ditto on the airfare! I started checking rates yesterday for our July trip...topping at over $900 per person right now...OUCH! But it's worth every penny!
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #125) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 3:14 pm: |
We finally settled on $724 for our April trip but it was $1000+ when we first started checking. We booked direct with AA. It does mean an overnight in Miami on the way down but a quick 19 hours on the return! :-)
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10091) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 3:28 pm: |
We paid $800 plus the first time, and this last July I held out and waited till the last minute and got one for $741...Once they drop to the low $800's is when I'll start seriously looking
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #172) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 7:03 pm: |
Linda
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By Freddie Hughes (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4403) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 7:11 pm: |
OK Joe, Thats it!!!!! You need to put a photo of yourself in your profile!! I am tired of looking at that blasted Ray!!! We need to know who to look for at the street cam next week!!! And don't think that if you put a picture of Velveta that it will smooth the way!! we want to know who you are before you show up at the cam!!! LOL
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By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #10098) on Wednesday, January 7, 2004 - 7:15 pm: |
Freddie, I HEAR that he kind of looks like Willie Nelson (at least the hair part anyway)....but I do think that a pic is in order for a positive ID...oh, and Chez Joe, go check out the cc thread for today...I'm doing the countdown for you...just in case you forget
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #126) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:01 am: |
Joe, you're missing the countdown in your posts! Without a new profile pic you'll just have to have/do something "cheesey" on the cams. Umm use your imagination.
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #174) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:09 am: |
Sorry kids, I can't post my photo because of the velveeta witness protection program. I've petitioned Ashcroft for permission but he's way to busy protecting us from ourselves to waste time responding to a good ole amurkan constituent.
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By Linda Stoltzfus (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #127) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:20 am: |
That'll be my birthday dinner! :-) Do they serve macaroni at It Rains Fishes?
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #121) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:02 am: |
Linda, I bet your hotel in Cabo was the Hacienda Beach Resort from your description - nice place. Was is right by the entrance to the marina? You are right about the cruise ship people and we were there once when the Bisbee was on. Yiks!!!there was a lot of people. On our last trip to Cabo (Oct 03) we pretented one day that we were with one of the cruise ships and followed these people around for a couple of hours - life is an adventure and that was a funny one! I'll never do a cruise for fear I will turn out like them. In Bonaire on our last trip we watched a big ship unload rice all day and all night and wonderered where the trucks were taking it. We got up a 3:00am and followed one - now we know! Oh, by the was, we thought the rice might have come from China - no it came from Texas! I'm still trying to figure that one out.
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By Tom Cousino (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #328) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:46 am: |
Back to the original subject of this thread if you will.
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #122) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:25 am: |
Tom, you're right, sorry got derailed. Bonaire is certainly not for everyone but if Elliot had been going there for ten years, there must have been something he liked. Over the course of ten years, prices were certainly expected to increase as they will over the next ten years - EVERYWHERE. I live further away than most of the BT'ers, so for me to get anywhere, costs me more.
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #123) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 11:34 am: |
Just one last observation. Elliot is has been going to Bonaire for ten years but is a "New Bonaire Talker" with 5 posts. If he's planning on not coming back why bother to log on now!
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1260) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:00 pm: |
I think Elliot is long gone. I'd like to hear a concrete example of the price gouging.
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By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1619) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:10 pm: |
To address Lorraine's question, was this a bit of instigation, just to 'stir the pot'???
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By Freddie Hughes (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4405) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
perhaps Elliot is "M who cannot be spoken of"'s brother???
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By Darryl Vleeming (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #268) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
I think everyone here is being way to hard on him. He raised a legitimate issue, and while most of us don't aggree here, you could certainly find lots of other people who would aggree with him. Its just unlikely that these people are going to be a member of this board. This board almost exclusively contains Bonaire lovers who at the first sign of anyone saying anything bad about Bonaire jump up and defend it.
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By Tom Cousino (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #329) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 2:39 pm: |
Darryl, I agree he has gotten beat up a bit. It has bothered me this past week. Again he has travelled to Bonaire much longer than many of us. So his opinion is based on his experiences/expectations and is valid to him.
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By Freddie Hughes (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4406) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 2:42 pm: |
Well Darryl, I am so sorry that you feel that way..but as you state
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By Darryl Vleeming (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #269) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:00 pm: |
Freddie,
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By Freddie Hughes (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4409) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 3:06 pm: |
I respect YHO and I hope you have a wonderful trip.. Let us know in your trip report, that you are required to write as a BTer{LOL}, if you think it is expensive!!!
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By seb schulherr (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1263) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 5:47 pm: |
Oh, I think inquiring minds just want to know, I'm sorry if the guy felt beat up, but opinions are usually formed from some facts. Elliot never presented any. An opinion without some basis in fact is just a feeling. Elliot really didn't enter into a dialogue, he just made some assertions and then got cranky when people disagreed. We don't know if he has been anywhere besides Bonaire for the last ten years. If he said "we've taken the same basic trip for the past ten years and the total we spend has more than doubled" well, that would be supportive fact. But price gouging is not a nice term by any means, it is in fact character assassination of the worst sort. He flamed the island and Sorobon and then whined when others disagreed. Everybody cares about different things in a resort or lodging, one man's perfect place is another's hell on earth.
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By joe brannan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #175) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 7:36 pm: |
Ok way to serious.
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By Kay Powers (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #744) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 8:45 pm: |
What is expensive to me....may not be expensive to you and vice versa. Elliot, if you're out there, I respect your opinion.
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By Tom Starkweather (BonaireTalker - Post #43) on Thursday, January 8, 2004 - 9:30 pm: |
Seb - a concrete example of price gouging is beer. The protectionism policy makes Polar sell for 3 - 4 NAF where you can buy 12 for that price less than 100 miles away.
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #124) on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 1:59 am: |
No, my intention was NOT to stir the pot and I am not at all offended that you thought I was. It was just a curious observation - food for thought, so to speak. This topic certainly did open a colourful dialog. I look at vacations as an opportunity to meet new people and the experiences I have. It should NEVER be about the money. If I can afford it, I don't go! and I don't complain about it. Money is not the root to all evil, the LOVE OF MONEY is, so if you love you money so much, keep is in your pocket. THEN, keep adding more until your pants fall down and you end up mooning someone, then maybe you won't take this money thing too serious!
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By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1621) on Friday, January 9, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
Lorraine, I was referring to Eliot's original post, not yours, as 'possible instigation'. Could have phrased it more clearly. Heck, I knew what I meant. :–)
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By Lorraine Bayford (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #125) on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 1:26 am: |
No problemo! I was actually flattered, never been called an instigator before.
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By Elliot Burke (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
and besides being too expensive, they allowed homes to be built in one of the most scenic areas on the island and closed the damn road.
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By Les Phelps (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 1:53 pm: |
Elliot, I'm not going to encourage you to stick with Bonaire. Divers coming back over and over again make up a large part of the islands business. If the trend continues, the island may grow into something less desirable.
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By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1630) on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 4:22 pm: |
As I suggested before...
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