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Environmental Action: Dumping Continues. Video to watch now...
Bonaire Talk: Environmental Action: Archives 2008-2009: Dumping Continues. Video to watch now...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7154) on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 7:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Sean Paton, Bruce Davison and another expert have produced a new video clip about the continued dumping onto Bonaire's land. Please take a moment to watch the video clip as this is so important that everyone grasp what is continuing to occur and the permanent damage it will wreak on the land, the water tables and the reef. Thanks for caring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAzg6_X8m8

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By a retired Grunt (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #899) on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 8:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

As the old saying goes, that stuff really does flow downhill. Too sad. Will the usual nothing continue to be done?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eddie blizzard (BonaireTalker - Post #65) on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 2:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Thanks for caring.



Ha! Thanks for the laugh.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7156) on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 10:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

So glad you were able to get a good laugh out of the post.

What seems to be the problem, Mr. Eddie Blizzard? I fail to see the humor in the topic or your odd response. I am a true believer in and definitely do appreciate good sarcasm and cynicism when it is warranted, believe, me...but not as it relates to this serious topic. But, thanks for reading the thread, anyway, Eddie.

I see you are a fairly new contributor to BT. I do hope you will continue to share your ideas, thoughts, comments and input with the rest of us who sincerely do have concerns about Bonaire and her future. Peace, Mr. Blizzard.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Smits (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #748) on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 11:28 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

And here is part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EihWrfOIj1g

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By *Freddie* (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #13232) on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 12:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Carole, Please do not feed the troll :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7159) on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 12:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Didn't realize he was a troll until after you posted your note onto Eddie's additoinal post thread about the FW....let him troll on his own....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #563) on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 5:59 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I am truly appalled at what is happening to 'my' little island.

Once again, hats of to Sean for his selfless work in bringing these things to the attention of the masses.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #217) on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 3:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

It seems like using reason with Bonaire's politicians and other officials has not resulted in any action. Over and over they promise to stop the Freewinds from coming to Bonaire and to stop the dumping of the Freewinds , and nothing happens as evidenced once again by this video.

Time to start protesting and carrying signs every time the Freewinds appears. Even a handful of folks with signs informing everyone of the Freewinds pollution would be bad publicity for the island that prides itself on "leading by example."

What kind of example is this? Where is STINAPA? Why aren't they acting? Which is worse--the lionfish or constant sewage polluting the reef?

Time for non-violent protest action. For all of you who love Bonaire, time to carry a sign and let the reef's voice be heard!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #47) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 12:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I know that most everyone here hates cruise ships in general, Freewinds in particular.

However, the dumping is occuring largely because the alternative is discharging sewage almost directly on the lee-side reefs through faulty septic tanks and other non-effective sewage treatment problems.

So what do you want Stinapa to do? Stop the dumping? Then where does all the sewage go? Back directly on the reef?

The simple sad fact is that dumping is better than direct discharge on the reef.

Rita is an excellent scientist and she is correct that 2KM is a short distance for sewage to flow in the porus Bonair substrate. However, the aquafier may well lead to the other side. (We would need to do a dye study to determine this.)

I do not dispute that dumping is a bad thing and I agree that Rita's testing methods are sound. The ground water is polluted to a dangerous level. But I afraid it is the least negative result for Bonaire.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1180) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 2:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

What about dumping on much higher ground?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #219) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 4:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, Did you know it is illegal for a ship to dump its sewage on an island where there is no sewage processing? This is why STINAPA and the government of Bonaire should stop any dumping by the Freewinds. The fact that it is not being stopped suggests to me anyway that someone is getting paid off.

A protest action against the Freewinds might just embarrass either those in charge or the Freewinds scientology crowd to stop their dumping on Bonaire.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #48) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 5:08 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Pauline-

True....but the Freewinds sewage is small potatoes in the grand scheme of sewage disposal on Bonaire.

And, in my view, it may well detract from focusing on the real problem: What to do with the sewage until a disposal plant and sewer is installed.

Regards,

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #220) on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 5:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, I think the Freewinds situation offers a perfect political opportunity to publicize the total sewage problem on Bonaire, even though their dumping may be "small potatoes". Here right in broad daylight (well actually in nightlight) is a ship dumping poo on the island that markets itself as green, ecotourist, pristine, leading by example, etc. Most people will be disgusted by the imagery and appalled by the hypocrisy.

In contrast, leaking septics are harder to visualize and protest.

I imagine a group of committed souls carrying signs and passing out informational flyers about the total sewage problem on Bonaire with names and numbers to call, etc. to pressure for more immediate action. This kind of overt public pressure has not been tried, and let's face it, we need to try everything or Bonaire's reefs will disintegrate into rubble in just a few years from now. If anyone is interested in participating, I will be on the island from Dec. 12 to Jan. 9 and trying to organize something. e-mail me if you want to help or get involved.

best wishes, Tom, and thanks for all your good work on the issue.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #49) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 1:30 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Good wishes from me to publicizez the issue.

We are closing in on getting data from LMSP processed and on the web in 2 weeks.

Tom

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MadMan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #215) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 2:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

i can still remember the years that someone would go to the toilet at the Zeezicht restaurant and when they "flushed" you could see the bubbles out in the sea. The same happened at all the resorts of that era. We have come a long way since that. Slowly but surely we will solve these problems. I'm going back to lurking but had to react to the dumb accusations that i see each time that the topic is Freewinds. Have you people seen money being passed under the table. I know not everything is perfect on Bonaire. And it is alway assumed that everybody can be bought and is paid for. But still where does most of the #### come from. I think a lot more is coming from the divers etc. staying in newly build apartments on the sea side, who are much larger in number than the few that come on the Freewinds. The Bonaire Gov. Council is working on a solution, maybe in the meantime we should prohibit people staying in these new apartments?? Makes more sense to me than losing time and protesting the Freewinds

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro-www.bonairebeachcondo.com (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2603) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 6:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

quote[I think a lot more is coming from the divers etc. staying in newly build apartments on the sea side, who are much larger in number than the few that come on the Freewinds. ]


MM..How about banning people who live in old run down houses with antiquated/neglected septic systems and beer puts that leak effluent into the sea? All new construction on the island (especially seaside property) must pass stringent building code requirements which weren't in place nor enforced decades ago as your posting illustrates.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Brown (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #150) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 8:46 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Vince,

While on this topic, would mention that we recently stayed at the Bellevue (very nice). The home to the north side of the Bellevue has a discharge pipe adjacent to their little concrete "pier" that runs right into the ocean. Have you seen it or know what it is? It was a little disturbing.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro-www.bonairebeachcondo.com (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2604) on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 12:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Will... The house next store is at a higher elevation than the beach. It is a discharge pipe connected to a drain to divert rainwater. Nothing more dramatic than that.

In actuality along our seaside wall, we also have discharge pipes which drains the rain water from the pool deck, the fresh water shower & rinse tank. This is a common and accepted practice. The owner of that house is very eco conscious; additionally she's out there snorkeling every day.

I do hope you thoroughly enjoyed your stay at Bellevue & will come back & visit with us again! :-).

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MadMan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #216) on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 10:18 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

And vince where does the juice that come's out of those well build "beerput's" go. As far as i know all juice goes to the same place and causes problems.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro-www.bonairebeachcondo.com (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2605) on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 11:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

MM: Let's not obfuscate. I (and many others) am totally against the anachronistic practice of "beerputs" which were used in the OLDER dwellings on Bonaire which seeped effluent directly into the sea and adjacent area. What I objected to was your statement pertaining those who stay "in newly built apartments on the seaside".

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7166) on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 10:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bonaire needs waste water treatment plant(s) now as well as a formal system to manage the solid waste.

Finger pointing at whose poop is spilling and being dumped is only part of the issue...the main issue is "where is the treatment plant Bonaire was promised" oh so many times, oh so long ago.

Are the temporary trenches/tanks in place as yet? Are they still in transit for the past year?? Don't think so.

What is the status with the construction of the treatment plant facility? Is that to follow after the WEB and windmill projects?? Can anyone tell us when help will be offered???

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7168) on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 11:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EihWrfOIj1g&feature=channel


Video clip Part 2....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #50) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 9:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

There may be an issue that Bonaire has not approved the "Municipality" option to unite with Holland that was approved by the Island Council some time ago and has caused the Dutch to spend considerable money in Bonaire.

The "free association" seems to be an equally favored approach.

The "free association" approach is relatively undefined and will probably be the result of extensive negotiations.

It would be interesting to know if the "political" situation is causing the Dutch to drag their feet funding a solution to the "pollution" problem.

Does anybody know?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carole B. (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #7172) on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 9:34 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I was hoping someone might have responded to your post by now, Tom....anyone out there who has knowledge, information, insight or the inside scoop on the status of theses projects between the people of Bonaire, BES and the Dutch?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #566) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 5:16 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Talking to Dutch people who live in the Netherlands, I get the impression that the Antilles are a burden that they would rather walk away from unless they can control the islands.

Like most of these islands, they have passed from one country to another over the years. Had it not been for the Dutch - Anglo agreement in 1814, it would have remained in the hands of the British.

Once slavery was abolished, the Western occupiers of all of these little islands found themselves responsible to pay Reparations for their part in the Slave Trade.

It is nearly 150 years since the Slaves were freed and many of the Dutch feel that they have paid enough for their actions. Apart from the millions of Euro's that they spend, the Antilleans don't have the best of reputations in Holland and many feel that they get the rough end of the stick. A Dutch citizen has to jump through hoops to come to Bonaire but an Antillean can go to The Netherlands and receive welfare or work without restriction.

Most would either cut Bonaire loose and stop all funding or take over total control to develop it as it is pretty fair to say that those who have held power over the years have either wasted or misappropriated the monies sent by the Dutch Government.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #51) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 2:10 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't want to hijack this thread into a political discussion but the attitude of the Dutch as described by Antony coupled with a feeling of entitlement by islanders made asking the question: "How does this affect the treatment plant?" a no brainer.

I have no inside information. I just read the Bonaire Reporter. What I haven't seen in the paper is that question asked on Bonaire.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #222) on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 5:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom and Carole, the last we heard (this was in mid-October), was that the papers had been signed and the treatment plant was supposedly on its way and going to be operational before the cruise ship season (December). Whether that is still on target, given the chaotic politics of the new referendum, etc., is something that needs to be asked. Carole, perhaps Sean knows something?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eddie blizzard (BonaireTalker - Post #67) on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 4:40 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

It sounds like the Dutch are mad at themselves for treating Bonaire as an equal rather than as an asset.

No doubt the reef and a lot of other things would be in great shape if Bonaire was under British control.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #569) on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 5:35 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Eddie.

As a Brit myself, I doubt that we would have done any better than the Dutch. The trail of neglect and destruction that we have left on these island over the years is there to be seen by all.

Maybe Bonaire needs an independent body of people to assess the needs of the island from an ecological point of view and then pressure those whose responsibility it is to implement those needs.

One thing is for sure, somebody needs to take control and do it now!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #52) on Tuesday, December 8, 2009 - 4:56 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

How little this forum knows about what is happening on Bonaire. No one has answered my question yet.

Reading the Bonaire Reporter, it appears that the entire political element of Bonaire is totally focused on the issue of the relationship with Holland.

It looks like nothing can be done until that issue is decided. I hope that the reefs can last that long.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bart Snelder (BonaireTalker - Post #66) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 9:07 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Feel free to read yesterdays edition of the amigoe

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #53) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 11:33 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

How do I read the "amigoe"?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro-www.bonairebeachcondo.com (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2626) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 11:58 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom..See this link..

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #841) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 12:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bonaire was offically Dutch since 1633 - with 2 short periods it belonged to Britain 1800 -1803 and 1807-1815 - and that was the period when all the hard wood trees were sold for ship building to an US ship builder ....

The 2 last election were won by the Green Party and they started after the Referendum, when more than 65% the people of Bonaire voted for a direct link with Holland, the talks together with Saba and St.Eustatius as BES island for the integration as a kind of oversea community of Holland. Somewhere in March (?) this year, one member of the Green Party and member of the Islands Council, Mr. Nicolaas (the one convicted for wife beating and threatening with a wapon) decided to leave the Green Party and continue as independant member - and he decided he will vote together with the Red Party ... and with Mr. Nicolas the Red Party had the Majority of 5 to 4 seats .... and the Red Party wants an association status, which does not exist by Dutch Law.... sometimes they even talk about independance.... and they want a new Referendum.
But in January there are the last elections for the Parlament of the Netherlands Antilles - so the Referendum will not take place before March 2010 !! And the Red Party stopped all changes as planned and agreed to by the Green Party and the Govt. of the Netherlands. Saba and St.Eustatius are no happy with that decision, but Holland agreed to continue their transission process without Bonaire.
How many of the planned projects (millions and millons of $$) are stopped at the moment (airport, water treatment, school, hospital etc) from the Dutch side is not exactly clear. Red members complain about blackmail and colonialism .... Holland talks about a contract which is not valid at the moment as the Red Party stopped working at it ...
The Red Party has to decide about the question to be ask at the Referendum. There is one, decided by the Referendum commission, which is not really a clear and understandable one !
There are UN members on Bonaire, talking to all sided of Polititians and lots of people.
The Red Party will allow only people to vote at the Referendum next year people, who have lived at least 5 1/2 years uninterrupted on Bonaire - excluding with that young Bonaireans who have been to Holland for study or work experience !

From what I hear around me from Bonaireans I know, there are lots of unhappy one, there are quite a number confused ones, and rather few who agree with the Red Party ......

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #54) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 5:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I can't read yesterday's edition of the amigoe, only todays.

No temporary treatment plant till April is says which means that the island will go through the busy season as-is.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #224) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 6:33 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, Tom, the promises have been going on for years now--don't worry, they say, the plant will come in May of 2009; then, the plant will come in October 2009 before the busy cruise season; now it will come in April 2010. Three years ago, marine biologist Brian La Pointe said Bonaire's reefs were "at the point of no return." THREE YEARS AGO! When renowned marine biologist Sylvia Earle visited Bonaire in August, ironically to receive an environmental award from the Bonairean and Dutch governments, she was shocked by the poor state of Bonaire's reefs.

Obviously the government, tourist, and environmental officials on Bonaire are either incompetent or apathetic or perhaps both. And the result of their incompetence, apathy, narcissism, and perhaps greed will be the death of Bonaire's reefs. they are taking their last breaths now. Can you see and hear it?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #55) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 7:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The problem Pauline is NO PROOF.

While almost everyone who dives says that the reefs are degrading, noone can say that the discharge of human waste is a major contributer to the problem. In fact, even the reef degredation is a subjective judgement.

You ask. What proof do they need??? The answer is a scientifically operated study that shows what is causing the high nutrients. Brian only showed that there were high nutrients, not the source.

His "Bonaire reefs are at the tipping point" was an opinion that his study did not support. There were, in fact, other possible reasons why Brian could have found high nutrients including water from Venezula, upwellings from deeper nutrient-rich water and poor sample handling.

Note Rita's current ground water testing. Her methodology was flawless but she can't say that the ground water is being polluted by dumping nor can she say the nutrients are reaching the reef. (We would need to put dye in the dump site and detect it with a fluorometer to show cause and effect.)

And, NO!, what seems obvious is not good enough. Go back a year and read where everybody was screaming that the big cruise ships were nechanically damaging the reef. Seemed obvious but the conclusion was wrong.

This is why I suggested that attacking the Frewinds would be counterproductive. Freewinds supposibly treats its waste chemically and will argue that their effluent is not causing any problem. How can you argue?

What's the answer?

Fortunately, LMSP has turned the corner. We are now over a year in the water with the upgraded filters and we are up-to-date preparing the data for analysis.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By a retired Grunt (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #904) on Wednesday, December 9, 2009 - 9:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Will we, after the fact of the reefs being completely dead, have plenty of time to look back and discover "why"?
I have only been visiting Bonaire for ten consecutive years.
That makes me a newcomer.
Does anyone else see a degradation of reef quality over that time?
More people, more cruise ships, more autos, more building, and yes, more poop.
It is all cumulative and it all adds up.
When will the LOCAL government do something/anything?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3136) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 12:41 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

As always in politics, as with so much else in our lives, follow the money: consider the difference to local Bonaire politicians who are in office between 'association' (i.e, Dutch oversight) as chosen by the referendum and 'independence' (sort of like free lunch).

Ask why the one Green party member changed parties and thus the course of Bonaire's future. Consider that the Red party is going against the clear will of Bonaireans (as shown in the Referendum} for it's own benefit. It certainly is not in the island of Bonaire's interest in any way to have the Dutch investment (finally) in Bonaire infrastructure halted. Follow the money.

'Just' another case today of politicians in office trying to take their country toward state socialism against the will of the country's people. The ecology of Bonaire is the least of their interests.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #225) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 9:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen is absolutely right. The politicians, like Nicolaas, who are wanting to overturn the will of the Bonairean people in the last referendum to have direct ties with Holland, are interested only in their own pockets, particularly in non-stop development on Bonaire with no restrictions from Dutch laws, regulations, etc. It is all about $$$$$$$$$$ for their personal agendas.

Obviously they don't care one bit about no money for education, pensions, health care, law enforcement, etc. let alone sewage management and the ecology of the reef.

And when Bonaire becomes like Curacao and no one comes here to dive anymore, they will be off with their money to live somewhere else since the economy will have collapsed and Holland will not be bailing Bonaire out.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #56) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 12:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen is absolutely right. In fact you can count on most people to do what's right for themselves. That's why we need to show the voting population of Bonaire that's it in their own selfish interest to save the reefs.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eddie blizzard (BonaireTalker - Post #68) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 6:15 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post




quote:

Glen is absolutely right. In fact you can count on most people to do what's right for themselves. That's why we need to show the voting population of Bonaire that's it in their own selfish interest to save the reefs.



It seems like there is always a local or two who get on the forum and say that they are doing something about it but nothing ever changes.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #57) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 7:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well for me STEP 1 is PROOF.

If we can show that (1) the increased organic content of the water is shore-based and (2) continuation will lead to a degraded reef system then mybe the locals will act.

Then again maybe not.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eddie blizzard (BonaireTalker - Post #69) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 7:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Maybe. But then again maybe something else has gotten their attention as far as long term profit goes.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3137) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 9:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

'The locals' understood the overall politics well enough to vote as they did in the referendum and in electing Nicolaas based on the party affiliation he proclaimed. The general population is not the problem, rather the vested interests which are trying to overthrow 'the will of the people'. Think Venezuela and hope for another Honduras on Bonaire.

All the 'proof' in the world about the damage to the reef won't help here, only a government which believes in the 'good of the island', and the constitution and follows it in word and spirit.

(Message edited by glenr on December 10, 2009)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #843) on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 9:20 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Glen

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #578) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 5:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen speaks a lot of sense.

The dichotomy is that it appears that 'local' government ministers have the support of the people but don't care about the island as where outsiders care about both but don't have the power to do anything about it.

Bonaire would probably benefit from an outsider in power who can see the problem from an objective point of view. Of course, nobody is going to vote for a Macamba.

Maybe it's time for Sean Paton to run for office!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #845) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 8:26 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Anthony, your comments are certainly not helpful at all....
Politicans are generally elected by the people and than do what they want, the UK has enough of those, isn'n it ?
And this time on Bonaire it is worse than normal because of Mr. Nicolaas

Imposing anything - and by a foreigner! - onto the Bonaireans will work to the contrary ... educating, talking, trying to show the importants of something makes a much better chance ! Rather an international problem also I would think, people are not that different regardless from which country they are ....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #579) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 10:13 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I think that you miss my point Brigitte.

I was merely pointing out that those who are too close rarely see the problem. Having lived on the island and spoken to (indigenous) locals, a treatment plant is not a vote winner and the politicians know that.

If the Government won't do anything and the people can't or won't force them then the Netherlands should force them to make it a priority. Although it is true that the Antilles is primarily bankrolled by the Dutch, a proportion of that funding comes direct from the coffers of the EU, an organisation that the UK pays more into pro-rata than any other country. In my eyes, whoever pays the piper gets to call the tune.

If the Dutch see themselves responsible for the people of Bonaire then they should show the same responsibility for the island that they fought for all of those years ago. The Antilles has hemorrhaged millions of Euros over the years and not only is there little to show for it but nobody is made accountable.

The people of Bonaire need many things such as higher education opportunities, training for young people and a better infrastructure. They also need a treatment plant for their children and their children's children before their biggest source of income, tourism, destroys the island.

Antony (still without that 'H' that everyone loves)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #846) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 11:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Anthony, I think you still dont understand.
Holland has not been responsible !
The Netherlands Antilles have been autonomous since 1954 and the Dutch had very little to say here - Dutch teachers were called home and it was taken over by the NA as education was fully in the hands of the NA, as was health car, immigration, police, custom.
Holland was responsible for Defense and Foreign Affairs only.
And whenever Holland proposed something to pay, but also to control were the money went, there was the big complain about Colonialism .... so Holland kept the mouth (and wallet) shut as much as possible.
Because nothing worked well, Aruba went out of the NA in the 1980s ... and than there was talk about a split of the other islands in the end 1980s, but Miguel Pourrier (born in Rincon) thought that a bad idea , he was elected and became Minister President of the NA ... but nothing changed and that is why there was a referendum 4 years ago ...
In all these years, Holland did not pay much and certainly not the EU .. the only money promised from the EU was the waste water treatment and as nothing has really happend in more than 10 years, nothing much has been paid up to now.
Why do you think the school became that bad, same for Hospital, for the streets .... Holland always got the answer we can do it alone ...
Lots of politicians on Curacao are to blame for it and quite some on Bonaire. Very few had the islands future in mind when elected .....
And now we have the Red Party with these same old fashioned arguments ... so Holland again stopped paying .... and they again are called Colonianists etc

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #580) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The financial support of the Netherlands is huge when all is taken into consideration.

This year alone, 1.7 billion Euros have been designated just for debt repayments for Bonaire, St. Eustatius and Saba. Part of that is funded by the EU under the Special Member Status. While it may be true that theoretically Bonaire is responsible for it's own affairs, it is Holland that bails them out. Add to that, the EDF allocation thusfar of € 42M with another € 24M to follow, it ain't small change.


On top of this are the indirect costs incurred by Antillean migrants to Europe. When Suriname for example decided to be autonomous, 40% of the population jumped onto a plane and headed for the Netherlands while they still had Dutch status. Tens of thousands of Antilleans live in Holland and of all of the 'immigrants' residing there, they are the the biggest problem. Welfare payment, crime etc costs the Government heavily. This is the price that Holland pay for reparation. If Bonaire did get autonomy, there would be more Dutch than Bonarians on the island.

I'm afraid that these islands that were colonised hundreds of years ago need to stop playing the slavery card and either support themselves or allow others to do it for them.

It is a case of wanting everything in one bag but not wanting the bag to be heavy.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #58) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hmmm.........
"a treatment plant is not a vote winner and the politicians know that."

"... so Holland again stopped paying"

I think this says it all.

Thats what I heard on the island. The locals don't dive and see the dive business as controlled by the europeans with no profit to the locals. They'd rather have cruise ships because they can sell their local handiwork at the market.

So I change my tune. The dive resorts must see it in their own best interest to stop dumping sewage in the reef. "The reef they save may be their own house reef"

Better?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pauline Kayes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #226) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 1:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

yes, Tom, I am often wondered why the dive operators are not pounding down the doors of the tourist board, the governor, etc. given that their businesses could all go under once it becomes common knowledge that Bonaire's reefs are no better than St. John's or Cozumel's or the BVI, with airfares costing much less.

I have heard that some say they will just change their focus and become a casino resort or a gay resort (I guess they assume gay people do not dive and just want sun and water!)or whatever it takes. They also assume that people will still come, especially the Dutch and other Europeans, just for the warmth, sun, and the beautiful Caribbean (although full of sewage).

To be sure, it will not just be the dive resorts that will lose business if the reefs die; it will be all other kinds of services, like restaurants, stores, rental properties, etc. And then there will be no taxes coming in to support the local government, and unemployment will soar, and Bonaire will quickly become one of those Caribbean islands that people avoid because of crime and drugs, which will be the only occupation available.

But I guess you are right, very few seem to see the connection between the reefs and Bonaire's economy, but by the time they do, it will be too late!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #847) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 1:19 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Surinam did not go autonomous but independant , that is quite a difference ! Suriname is not part of the Kingdom, Aruba still is and so are the NA.
The money part Anthony wrote is not the past, but the future - and is the part which stopped now on Bonaire because of the Red Party wanting a new Referendum and stopped working with the Dutch and so the Dutch put on hold the expensive projects ....
Saba, St. Eustatius are now called the ES island, the B (onaire) is the only one on hold !


The Red party came up with their ideas after winning the elections in 1996 ... and Bonaire went down fast in population(from 14.000 back to 10.800 !) and in tourism (from about 60.000 per year to 38.000) ! Lots of Bonaireans moved to Holland and even a bigger %ige of the Dutch.
The Red lost the next election .....
And that would happen again if the Red Party really would get the votes for that unexplained idea of association ... the Dutch will be the first ones moving back to Holland and the locals will follow ...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #59) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 2:56 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Pauline-

I have a work-in-process analysis of what happens "if".....on Bonaire

The section on the dive industry is largely completed

I will share it with you if you agree to share it with NOBODY.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lizard0924 (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #366) on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 3:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"once it becomes common knowledge that Bonaire's reefs are no better than St. John's or Cozumel's or the BVI, with airfares costing much less."

Yes, but the ability to shore dive tips the scales in favor of Bonaire, so until Bon's reefs are WORSE than Cozumel's, etc., I suspect divers who appreciate freedom from cattle boats will still visit.

This thread has really enlightened me to things I never knew about Bonaire. So thanks to everyone for sharing. This sort of information is very interesting, particularly as we consider our long-term plans for vacation home ownership.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Antony Bond (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #581) on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 6:15 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tom.

I guess that your 'What if' study will make grim reading.

As far as the commitment from the dive operators and hoteliers, how many of them are in it for the long term anyway? While I would concede that the majority of the Dive Instructors etc are concerned about the reef, I would summise that the majority of owners of the larger businesses are foreigners who will have made enough money to retire by the time the reef is dead.

The world is littered with once beautiful islands that have been raped by Westerners of their resources. Where there was once palm trees and open land there are now Western fast foods outlets and ugly apartment blocks. Without exception, every island and their peoples have been exploited by greedy Westerners out to make a buck and when there is nothing left to take, they are thrown aside like a $10 whore.

What the West has done to these islands in the last 30 years is far worse than they ever did during colonisation. Just because the indigenous people are not in chains, it doesn't make their treatment any more humane.



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Reynolds (BonaireTalker - Post #60) on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 1:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Antony-
What you say is correct EXCEPT that it focuses on Westerners. In fact, given the chance, people everywhere will exploit a situation for profit.

I remind you that African tribes captured slaves for the europeans. People are the same everywhere.

I remind you that I TRAVEL to Bonaire for a vacation but CHOOSE to live in Los Angles, complete with fast food outlets and and ugly apartment blocks and most native people on Bonaire (and almost anywhere else in the world) would quickly trade their lifestyle for mine.

Palm trees and open land are only valuable to us who have exploited other resources. Everyone else wants their turn....to exploit.

We need to show them how to exploit better....by saving the reefs

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eddie blizzard (BonaireTalker - Post #70) on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 4:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bonaire doesn't want too save the reefs. Get over it. If by some miracle they start to come back as a result of any activity on the island Bonaire will claim it was their intent but I don't think that is going to happen.

 


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