I got a heads up today from Sean Paton on Bonaire. It looks as though the manipulating powers that be that head the 'church' of Scientology now have the armed forces in their pockets. It is a disgrace that high ranking officers from the military be seen to condone the goings on of a bunch of idiots. Beliefs aside, I see this as a kick in the teeth for the island of Bonaire who are STILL having to manage the tonnes of waste that comes from that grubby old tug boat. Below is the text from a press release from the daily collection of maritime clippings.

SUCCESFUL MOVIE PERFORMANCE ON BOARD M.S. FREEWINDS

On Monday night February 22 the members and guests of the Antillean Chapter of the Royal Netherlandse Association of Marine Technology (acronym in Dutch KNVTS) organized the performance of the exclusive NASA movie on the Apollo space flights to the moon during the years 1968-1972.

The 63 guests filling completely the theater of the cruiseship Freewinds were welcomed by Captain M. Napier, the commanding officer of the Freewinds, who always offers the facilities of his ship to the members of the KNVTS and their guests, including the members of the Royal Netherlands Reserve Officers Association (Dutch acronym KVNRO)..Amongst the guests of honor were the deputy commander of the Dutch Armed Forces in the Caribbean Captain J. P.D. (Jeroen) van Zaalen and the Deputy Director of the Coast Guard for the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba Colonel J.J.M. (Hans) Schreuders.

Three high ranking officers of the United States AirForce were also amongst the guests of honor. The performance was an enormous success and even attracted journalists and photographers of local newspapers who were on board the Freewinds to report on another event, the well known Freewinds concert.Amongst the KNVTS members were the well know maritime photographer Mr. Kees Bustraan, who made pictures to accompany this press release.

Unbelievable . It shows , money talks

Antony's thread title is pure hogwash: the article simply says that several individual members of US and Dutch armed forces attended a very interesting movie.

There is no sign in the article that the personnel were there in any official capacity or that they 'approved of Freewinds presence', which after all is a freedom Freewinds has, however much Antony dislikes Scientology or Freewinds (as I remember, it he has been on their case several times on BT). Fortunately one of the freedoms we still have in the West is that military personnel are able to attend public functions in their off duty time.

The whole posting is just an invitation to denigrate the US and Dutch military by a misleading deflection of the printed words (and we have only Antony's word for the very existence of the article}, and Lloyd appears to have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker.

I have seen some disturbing videos of Freewinds contribution to the pollution on Bonaire .
Nothing against Scientology or any other groups.
For all I know the videos are also bait...

If we are talking about 'disturbing videos of Freewinds contribution to the pollution on Bonaire' that showed loading of trucks at Freewinds and the subsequent dumping in the open, they were disturbing, undoubtedly real and, for me, such disposal is appalling whether the source of product is Freewinds or 'on island'. I do believe it is unfair to go after Freewinds alone for open-ground dumping.

Unfortunately subsequent posts (or a news article) showed that the process apparently is legal so we come. again, to the failure of the Bonaire government to provide treatment of sewage and thus protection to the Bonaire population and to the reefs.

Solving that problem was underway in the now stopped process of Bonaire becoming part of Holland. Hopefully a solution to the present impasse will be found that brings all the planned infrastructure improvements forward. (I don't understand the present objections to the results of the first referendum going ahead. The objections seem to be rather esoteric reasons to me. Or, on the part of the Red party, self-serving.)

Doesn't read to me like any negative against the attendees or the organizers of the event.

I guess a person could always slam the Freewinds and its Captain for extending the use of the onboard facilities to the organizers, but that's something of a stretch of ire, IMHO.

I too was apalled by the pics of free dumping of bio-waste onshore on Bonaire. But if the practice is indeed legal, don't blame the dumper, blame rests solely on those in power who legalize the behavior.

Glen.

Before you stumble any further down the road of accusing me of posting erroneous information, I have sent you the original link from Maasmond Maritime. If anyone else wants it, please let me know.

As far as my thread title being 'hogwash', I disagree. Firstly, the article states: 'Captain M. Napier, the commanding officer of the Freewinds, who always offers the facilities of his ship to the members of the KNVTS' suggest that this is not a one off.

Secondly, the military personnel in question are not attending as civilians, they are in uniform and are being addressed by their military titles. As such, there very presence and their familiarity with Captain Napier suggests that they are happy to be associated with Scientology. Would you imagine that if they were invited by the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging to see that same film that they would attend? Of course not, because they would not want to be tarred with the Nazi brush.

These people were specifically invited because of their rank such as deputy commander of the Dutch Armed Forces in the Caribbean Captain J. P.D. (Jeroen) van Zaalen & three high ranking officers of the United States Air Force.

It appears that in the USA and the Netherlands, a blind eye is turned to the very unsavoury goings on in the name of Scientology. We in the UK are not as easily hoodwinked.

"It looks as though the manipulating powers that be that head the 'church' of Scientology now have the armed forces in their pockets. It is a disgrace that high ranking officers from the military be seen to condone the goings on of a bunch of idiots."

I'm sorry, but where are the mods? This slander and bigotry (by far not opinion) is not conducive to this forum nor should it be condoned.

Antony - how about you take your trash talk somewhere else or just shut up! If you are so against one religion, whether you think it's recognized or not, I wonder who else you hate and are just lurking to empty your trash on this forum and attack.

Get a life!

End of rant, but righteous bigots just tick me off. The really nice thing is I'm not well received on BT for voicing my opinion, so I guess I can't go any lower with this one and it sure did feel good.

Now, it's the end of rant.

How about if everyone settles down. Many people have their own opinions about the Freewinds, and their continuing presence on Bonaire.

With that said, let's have a civil discussion, and respect the religious rights of others.

Mod Jim

The KNVTS is an organisation for technical personal working in a maritime environment, it is not part of the Dutch forces, it is an organisation for people working in the civilian industry.

The fact that people from military organisations were invited, doesn't show that "the 'church' of Scientology now have the armed forces in their pockets". There are people visiting a performance of a movie. The fact that the sewer system of the Freewinds is emptied on Bonaire has not much to do with this. Neither the KNVTS or the KVNRO can do anything about the dumping.

I agree with Jim, let's keep the discussion civilized and respect the opinions of others.

Barry.

I am not sure where you live but I reside in a democracy. That allows me freedom of speech.

I notice from your profile that you are/were an English teacher. If that is indeed the case, you should know that the definition of slander is to make false statements orally and not through the written word. I think that libelous was the adjective you were searching for.

To be a bigot, one would be described as irrational and intolerant. I do not believe in a God nor do I believe in the story of Xenu or how we transcended from Thetans. I guess that in your eyse that makes me a crazy person. One thing that Scientology does have in common with all other religions is great wealth and power. The uneducated, gullible, frightened, vulnerable, desperate, indoctrinated and weak are easily parted with their cash.

The point that you are missing by a nautical mile (if you will excuse the pun) is that those on Bonaire who treasure the islands fragile flora & fauna don't want to see this asbestos ridden old tug dumping its waste on the island. While it is true that the Freewinds is not alone with its dumping of toxic waste, Bonaire has trouble enough dealing with its own without giving an open invitation to all and sundry to use the island as a dumping ground. The fact that military personnel that are funded by the Netherlands are enjoying the hospitality of such a vessel is a kick in the teeth for all of those who work hard to bring such things to light.

While it is my own personal belief that those who believe such things are as mad as cheese, I would still say each to their own. If some celebrity who calls their child butterfly-gas stove wants to spend $1,000,000 to achieve immortality, then hey! Go for it.

The bigger picture of course is that by religious standards, Scientology is very much in its infancy & as such, it is surrounded by many claims of corruption, murder, kidnappings, extortion etc. Whether such things are true or not remains to be seen but until such things can be proven or disproved, people of power and influence would be wise to keep a safe distance.

I suppose that there must be something in it as allegedly, when asked about his religious beliefs, Charles Manson claims to be a Scientologist. Now who could possibly argue with the wisdom of Mr Manson.................

Anthony, there are numerous examples of people killing in the name of any religion (including some of the older and more common religions). The fact that Charles Manson was a member of scientology does not mean every member of scientology is a murderer. Each religion has his mass-murderers amongst the believers.

Please try to keep this a normal discussion and respect each other.


(Message edited by martin_w on March 1, 2010)

Freedom of speech does not mean you can go anywhere you want to and spout anything you want to. This board has terms of agreement that you signed off on when you registered. Sometimes those terms limit that freedom, legally.

I love how some people take the 'right' of freedom of speech and bend it in ways it was never intended to be used.

Not a big fan of scientology but...

e.

Hey guys.

I am a great fan of the liberalism afforded to those who wish to practice their particular brand of religion and to those who wish to worship at that particular alter.

Maybe those 'high ranking US Air Force officers' will be enjoying the hospitality of Fred Phelps while watching a video on why 'God Hates Fags' as they so eloquently put it.

Just because something is legal and is adopted by some, it doesn't necessarily make it right.

Antony did send me the original reference (which is a very interesting maritime matters newsletter that doesn't have a link he can post here) and the wording is as he quoted.

The remainder of my comment stands: there is no indication of official Dutch or U.S. government approval/comment on Scientology or the Freewinds 'presence'. The statement that there is approval, and, in fact, the whole first paragraph, is pure hogwash.

(Message edited by glenr on March 1, 2010)

I dunno about you good folks, but if John Travolta asked me to join Kelly and him with Tom Cruise and Jenna Elfman out for a flight on his 747 to go to Paris for lunch.....I'd day merci beaucoups and dig out my passport.

Would I then join what I consider to be their less-than-mainstream 'religion'? No, but I'd accept their random act of kindness in the spirit in which it was given....plus it would make for a way cool story to tell my friends -lol

As a non-practicing atheist I enjoy the luxury of viewing all religions equally, be they mainstream, downstream or not even moist. Part of that is to consider folks by what they do, how they do it and how they act towards others.

"non-practicing atheist???" Isn't an atheist, by definition, non-practicing? Do you have to go to the atheist church and practice not worshiping the non-existent deity? Just asking.

LOL....congrats...you just passed my universal test for understanding comedy - or is that lunacy?

Hey, Antony, were there any women on board for the movie? If so, does this mean women support Scientology and the presence of Freewinds on Bonaire? Does this mean the 'church' of Scientology now has all women in their pockets?

Jeez. A high school logic student would instantly see the fallacy in your arguments. Just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true.

What an irritating thread.

I have a few tickets left for the next movie, comes with free popcorn,,,,Who want's in?

Movie, popcorn, free wind, John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Oprah's couch, Dutch military, asbestos, I'm in.

Yeah, Jim...the free popcorn got my attention. When you having this, Jerry? Might be worth a trip.

Wow! Antony! Glad I ain't Catholic - you 'slandered', er, 'libeled' all Catholics you know? You said, oops, wrote:

"The bigger picture of course is that by religious standards, Scientology is very much in its infancy & as such, it is surrounded by many claims of corruption, murder, kidnappings, extortion etc. Whether such things are true or not remains to be seen but until such things can be proven or disproved, people of power and influence would be wise to keep a safe distance." (Sound familiar back in Catholic history? Glad all our great Catholic leaders didn't keep a safe distance.)

Then you said/wrote: "I suppose that there must be something in it as allegedly, when asked about his religious beliefs, Charles Manson claims to be a Scientologist. Now who could possibly argue with the wisdom of Mr Manson................."

Did you know that Hitler was raised as a Catholic? Glad I'm Lutheran or I'd really be pi**ed. You first slandered/libeled my military and that got me upset, but wow.....what you did here to the Catholics is...tch tch tch.

Just for the record: 'writing' on BT, IMHO, is the same as 'saying' it...so, slander was the correct word.

Mel.
Despite your self confessed irritation with this thread, you couldn't resist reading it thoroughly enough to quote me verbatim and having your 10 cents. Don't those kind of people just irritate you......

Barry.
Don't worry, I am not selective when it comes to criticisms of religion. It just so happens that Scientology is amongst the most bizarre. Please don't get me started on Catholicism........

On the bright side, at least the majority of my fellow posters are affording me the courtesy of spelling my name correctly now.

Antony (still without the 'H')

Did governments in Europe changed their ideas and the laws concerning Scientology in the last few years ?
At least in Germany, Holland, France Sweden and I thought Scientology was not concidered a Religion but a Secte and they were not excempt from paying tax .... and had to follow buisiness rules ...
The Freewinds is forbidden because of that on quite some Caribbean Islands ... not so on the Netherlands Antilles who concider Scientology a Religion ...

Nice try, Antony. I read the entire thread to see if anybody would take you on. Part of my irritation is that few did. Good job, Glen and Barry.

Brigitte.

To my knowledge, Canada, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Norway, Greece, Switzerland, Russia & the UK have all refused Scientology the right to call themselves a religion in order to gain tax-free status. The French (don't ya just love em) have gone further & classified Scientology as a cult and managed to gain a conviction of fraud against Scientology which resulted in a fine of almost $900,000.

That said, applications and appeals are continually made in an effort to reverse these decisions.

It only needs one or two people to point out the logical faults. No logical point in piling on.

Please do not attack Catholics. Although I don't practice anymore, I am a recovering one.

Secondly, are you confusing the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps with Scientology? How did Air Force officers having lunch with Fred even come into this very bizarre thread?

If the subject of religion isn't 'off-limits' on BT it should be. All religion.

I agree Glen.

That would still exclude Scientology of course as I am British and we don't regard it as a religion. LOL....

Well we are talking cults now? Cool! Scientology is on the France government list of dangerous cults, Like Brahma Kumaris, who is also on the island recruiting. Using a friendly way to in-cult you with free courses like Raja Yoga, stress free living, positive thinking and others, before they tell you what the cult is all about. When they use Mental destabilisation,
exorbitant financial demands,
a rupture with members' original environment,
power in the hands of one person,
the invasion of a person's physical integrity,
the recruitment of children,
antisocial preaching and troubling public order,
activities which lead it to be tried in a court of law,
using parallel economic structures,
attempts to infiltrate the workplace, schools, and public powers.
So where can you draw a line as it comes to the freedom of religion, while you are giving false information? Cults not only pollute the environment but also people's mind.

(Message edited by modjerry on May 30, 2010)

"We in the UK are not that easily hoodwinked" mmmmmmmmm......... I may have lived on another planet for the last century but I seem to remember a few relatively famous british statements,such as chaimberlains' "no more war", or more recently on the imminent threat of Saddams' weapons of mass destruction. I seem to remember that following chaimberlains' statements this little quarrel (SP) erupted, and I don't recall any weapons of mass destruction have been found, but I do remember a few casualties here and there after the U.K. clearly had been hoodwinkled.

Religion in general is and has been the reason for the most awful and cruel acts throughout human history. Be it pagan, christianity, islam, the various buddhist sects and what have you, for simply not believing the dominant believe system and its clergy, people were beheaded, burned, killed, banned and imprisoned in the most heinous ways imaginable.

Condemning (or condoning) a small odd sect seems silly and small minded, let them be, who cares? Just stay out of my garden(of Eden HA!!) If scientology must be banned so must any religion. Differentiation is hypocrite at best.

On the matter of pollution, it starts with one's own back garden. There is not a single government on this planet that truly has committed to not just stop further pollution but actually clean up their act so much, that the environment as a whole is actually improving the overall environmental balance. At best the environment is degrading a little slower. This is obviously global, thus why would one government commit itself if others don't? Example: Insecticides that had accummulated and then blown off of the now dry sea bed of the Aral sea have been traced in pinguins in Antarctica and have been found in glacial ice in Greenland. Again, in the grand scheme of things Bonairean scale, who cares about a nasty little boat offloading its crap?

There is no sewage treatment system on Bonaire, which not only means that the freewinds is polluting in unacceptable ways, so do you and I. I have never understood why your (and my) crap is any better than that of the freewinds. If the freewinds must be banned from Bonaire, for environmental reasons, so must you and I. Differentiation is hypocrite at best.

Conclusion:
British must accept they can be hoodwinkled as well, HA!!! Religion must be banned. Sink all ships that plan to dock on Bonaire, pollution must be stopped, and we all need to plug our own arse.............

Bart, while I agree about the pollution coming from all sectors of the Bonarian population and its visitors, the question is not what the percentage of waste that comes from Freewinds is, but why the Government feels the need to allow such vessels to come to the island for no other reason but to dump their waste.

I don't really care whether the ship is full of potty Scientologists or potty Catholics. The bottom line is that this vessel contributes nothing to the economy of Bonaire.
As far a Britons being hoodwinked, politicians don't count...........

Actually Anthony, that is not a proper assessment either... They pay docking fees, if nothing else they pay the crap mover, they have sponsored numerous events, and over the years I have seen their 'guests' use numerous facilities and services. In fact I know for example that they sponsored the Sea Turtle Club, and helped to clean Klein Bonaire many times, IE they do contribute to the economy to Bonaire.

I am no fan of the Freewinds, but facts are facts, and emotions are emotions. Always the question then becomes invariably: but at what cost to Bonaire? That question goes for every type of tourism as well. Planes are the most polluting form of mass transport, never mind an operational airport, hotels and condo's a much more massive imprint than a pier. As long as there is no infrastructure, each and every environmental footprint is one too many.

The same as for religion and environment, the economic argument against the Freewinds is hypocritical at best.

With barely any other economic resource than tourism, Bonaire needs the infrastructure in the past, present, and future to ensure sustainability on every front of that industry or face the consequences of the lack thereof, as Bonaire already does, in addittion to what the world around us sends our way.

I think that you will find Bart that Ships are more polluting than planes.

The modern jet engine is more efficient than even the greenest of cars. Cruise ships omit 3 times more carbon omissions than planes. Carnival Cruises for example have said that their fleet releases 712.kg of CO2 per kilometre. Carnival's ships carry, on average, a maximum of 1,776 passengers. This means that 401g of CO2 is emitted per passenger per kilometre, even when the boat is entirely full. This is more than three times that of someone travelling on a standard Boeing 747. Add to that the damage to sea life.

Carnival operate many state of the art vessels while the Freewinds is a 45 year old tug boat. Despite their denials over the last twenty years that the vessel was full of blue asbestos, they were of course taken to task in 2008. Even the captain admitted that asbestos was released into the ventilation system during routine maintenance. They even drafted in 240 Polish workers to refurb the ship in the hope that such a group of people who were desperate for work would keep their mouths shut about the asbestos. Luckily they didn't and returned to Poland. The 'church' of Scientology is now being sued by that company for purposely endangering life.

I understand that Bonaire relies on tourism and I also understand that we are all guilty of increasing pollution merely by visiting such places as Bonaire. However, I can see no justification for allowing a vessel to dump up to four loads of toxic waste per visit onto a small island with no treatment facility in exchange for a few Guilders and the occasional concert in Wilhemina Plein.

I am not a sandal wearing tree hugger by any means but I don't agree with any organisation that abuses the vulnerable because they can and have the money to make problems disappear.

Antony, me thinks you have way too much time on your hands. Try a walk in the park or maybe hiking, but you are spending far too much time at your computer.

You seem to be an authority on everything and believe that everyone is wrong. Life is too short to waste arguing over crap. And I mean that literally.

Get a life and live a little (away from the computer).

If everybody thinks that way Barry where would the world be. I fully agree with Antony.

Thanks for the advice Baz. I have just enjoyed a day in the beautiful Scottish countryside.

I am unfortunately not an authority on everything but I do know when someone is trying to make me take the bait.

I only bite in person, not online.

Good show, Antony....wish I were there - in the countryside, not for the bite.

You are not going to believe this but I actually emit CO2. I'm not sure what my CO2/Km is though. Regardless, I've taken to not breathing.

e.

Hey Eric, is it smelly?....... HA!!!!

Um, no. I think my breath smells pretty good. I brush regularly. I said CO2, not methane.

e.

Hmmm. Have you stopped farting Eric? If you have, I'm sure Mother Nature would be extremely pleased, but not as much as your wife and children - oh yeah, and friends.

I was referring to breathing. Yes, there is a percentage of a fart that is CO2 but it is just one of many gasses passed in that way. But the point was that humans emit CO2. My guess is that the carbon footprint of humans (as opposed to our machinery) and animals is far greater than the other sources of this much maligned gas.

Oh ya. And the trees need it to survive.

e.

Eric, I do admit I was off the subject. So sorry. Just an attempt to a bit of levity. Ahh, so much for my comedy career. Guess I should just continue being a PITA and leave the humor 'behind" when it comes to fart jokes. Sorry.

To revert to the OP, I believe Antony is right to draw attention to this event. Everything that the cult does is calculated to be for its own benefit. Nothing is done for the public benefit or for fun.

This is a PR stunt to induce a feeling of obligation among a bunch a people who have certain official powers and who should in all circumstances be impartial.