Today the Dutch newspapers report that ten supposed criminals are arrested on Bonaire. The crimes involve mostly robbery and theft (apartments & cars). The minister of Bonaire, Elvis Tjin-Asjoe, reported two weeks ago that crime is increasing significantly on Bonaire.
There is no news about any stolen goods retrieved in the house-searches that followed the arrests.

I have heard of the odd car-theft, but I have never felt unsafe on Bonaire. Are there more reports about this crime-surge???

I have been 5 times and have NEVER had anything stolen, nor felt unsafe. Basically, leave the windows in your truck down, or at least cracked so potential thieves don't have to break into it. Leave it unlocked as well.

Leave anything in the truck in full view, and open, such as a dry box. And leave nothing valuable in it!!

There is crime in any country, and thieves just looking for an opportunity. No more so in Bonaire than anywhere else. Keep anything of value in your apartment in the safe. While I am not privy to the police reports, I suspect that the victims didn't take proper precautions.

Bonaire is a beautiful place, and its residents are appreciative of the tourist dollars.You will be just fine!!

FYI-Elvis is the Economic Minister on the inter-island council.

From Amigoe today


Huge police action in Bonaire

De weapons that the police confiscated in five homes in Tera Korá and Antriol this morning.

KRALENDIJK – In a raid in Bonaire this morning, 48 police officers together with members of VKB, directed by the Public Prosecutor and police leaders arrested 10 suspects and confiscated stolen objects and firearms, among others 4 air pressure pistols, 1 shotgun, and a shotgun. The action took place in connection with the many break-ins of lately in homes, hotels, apartments, and cars at diving locations.

The corps leaders decided to set up a special team under direction of Melvin St. Jago and immediately started to investigate all the break-ins. The team gave the leaders of the OM a presentation on their investigation yesterday and this morning they arrested the in Bonaire born R.R.P. (29), F.C.W. (34), R.F.E. (24), R.P.S.E. (22), I.P.S. (27), J.F.B. (20), E.A.W. (17), and R.I.N.C. (24) from Colombia, I.J.P.P. (28) from Curacao, and the woman from the Dominican Republic A.L.C-S. (40). Public Prosecutor David van Delft’s top priority is getting the persons arrested today in jail, because there are not many police cells in Bonaire. Nevertheless, the suspects of the break-ins remain detained.

According to Van Delft, all the cells in the House of Detention and the police cells in Kralendijk and Rincon are full. He is currently negotiating with colleagues in Curacao to see whether he can use cells in the Bon Futuro jail in Curacao. According to chief of police Jan van Straten, what took place in the past two months is unacceptable. “With the support of Minister Elvis Tjin Asjoe, the Lt. Governor, and the Governing Body, the police could do his job this time. The police corpse could use all technical means to investigate the break-ins”, said Van der Straten.

Great news! Let's see this get reported on all the dive boards out there. Kudos to the Bonaire police.

WOW - that is really good news. And let's hope that they can find cells to house them.

Hip Hip Hurray for the Bonaire police & their chief!

The report mentions "what took place in the last two months is unacceptable". I have not noticed any "out of the ordinary" crime mentioned on this board in the last two months. What exactly happened to finally get their attention?

Whatever it was, it is great to hear the authorities are finally taking the petty crime more seriously.

The last 2 months saw lots of break ins at local houses and tourist houses ... I would think 2/3 locals and 1/3 tourists ... lots on side streets with little traffic

All that I can say is: GO TEAM, KEEP IT UP! If you need more jail cells, build them! Let all the petty thieves know that there is room at the inn.

Two months of increased crime, if the report is correct, and not a peep? Guess no one got a police report.

Great news, indeed! Wow, didn't know they had 48 police officers!! I am glad they caught these idiots and am sure they will find somewhere to house them until.....forever?!?! Saw the ages and most are young adults. They should publish their names and addresses; this way we'll know and so will their neighbors! Then next trip I can pay them a visit!

Many thanks to the police and re-con team for getting these b*stards; now keep them OFF the streets of Bonaire!!

I very glad to see the police corpse alive and kicking at the bad guys. Good job.

Kobi
If I am not mistaking Dutch law forbids the publishing of suspects names, and I believe was just changed to include convicted criminals. A stupid move in my opinion.
Mick

more arrests today and request for those who have had items stolen to come to the station house to identify property. Peter

Mickey,

That's right, but only surnames. With the first name, the first letter f the surname and the place of residence you can usually deduct the surname, at least the neighbours can!
Something to do with a silly privacy law...

What good would it do to you that you know where a suspect (or even convicted) criminal lives? Just so you can "pay them a visit"?? And then what, talk, fight, kill, get killed?? One should respect the laws of the country one visits, including the laws regarding privacy of ALL residents, permanent or temporarily.

Thats all very nice until the teacher of your child or neighbour is a suspected child molester...
But in this case I have to agree!

Anyway, let's not make this into a human rights discussion!

Interesting. I hope that I personally hear from the police. Sounds encouraging.

I just reread the posting...7 of the 10 are Bonaire born...

I too hope they can find a place to house them and don't just have to let them go.

Jeff, if Brigitte is correct, in that 2/3 are locals...very few locals post on BT, and to my recollection, we have never had a resident/local post a crime report on BT.

OK, back to the topic at hand...let's all keep our fingers crossed that arrests continue.

This certainly is very good news for both locals and island visitors alike. Glad the crime issue was taken seriously by the government. The only concern I have is that they found weapons when making the arrests. In all my BT readings, I do not recall one incident of "armed robbery" being reported.

So where do we contribute to the jail construction fund?

From today 1/11/07 Amigoe

More arrests

KRALENDIJK – In connection with the investigation of the break-in cases that this paper reported yesterday, the detectives have arrested four more people for receiving. They also searched a home in Antriol, and confiscated three stolen laptops. The suspects that were arrested are L.A.d.l.S.-L. (25), W.F.C.-B. (23), R.F.M. (24), and the woman F.V.J. (23). Chief of police Jan van Straten invites all recent victims of break-ins to come to the meeting room of the police station in Kralendijk between 09:00 and noon, to see whether their stuff are among the confiscated items during yesterday’s raid. This applies to everybody, whether the break-in was reported or not.

Glad they are still at it and arresting these offenders!

My earlier comment was written light heartedly and I am respectful of law where ever I am; even the law of gravity!

Thanks for the update, Susan. Seems like something like this happened last year, well, I would call it a "family" all got arrested for same thing, but they had to let them go as no where to put them in jail. I hope this is not the "same" family group of folks.

I talked to Kathy tonight and she was telling me about this thread. Does anyone know what people who were tourist and had there stuff stolen what the procedure would be to find out if their items were located ?

No jail cells? Just lock them up inside the Hilma Hooker.

Residents don't bother to post about crime because "everyone" wants to keep it quiet.
So even BT tries to make it difficult by insisting on you posting the police report if you talk about a crime.

Message edited due to TOS violation

(Message edited by modcynde on November 4, 2007)

John..You're really jaded & misinformed. There's no censorship. Just follow the rules, pure & simple.
The rules are there for valid reasons.

Why don't we suggest to "the government" that they use part of our departure tax or over-nite tax to build a "real" jail for the bad guys....they need to know there is a place they will be held for a long time before they will stop committing these crimes...now they know they are not held accountable by any real degree.

Glad to see they are making progress in the arrest mode, however. Progress is accepted at all time.

Now we just need a place to "put" these bad guys. cb

Impossible, must be a mistake, there is no crime on Bonaire. I read it right here.

I think instead of starting a whole debate about crime and how it is being handled or not being handled. That this should become a positive thread in that the police should be praised for carrying out this sting and arresting the people that they did.
As being a victim of these people in the start of their crime wave I was upset for me as a tourist. But then when I heard how the residents where being affected by them made me realise how much worse it would be to live on such a small island and knowing it was going on and living with it on a daily basis wondering if your property was going to be the next one is so much worse.
I want to say thank you to the police dept for there hard work. Plus just like I was outspoken and let everyone know what happen to us here on bonaire talk and on scubaboard as soon as I found out what happen here I made sure I let people know on scubaboard about the police efforts and posted what Susan put on here.
I think that we should praise when something positive happens instead of just reporting on the negative.

Ross, I'm surprised that didn't get censored, just like mine saying there was crime. Maybe the mods don't understand sarcasm. Or maybe you are allowed to say you have heard about a non crime but not to say you have heard about a crime.

But don't forget, there is NO censorship

Of course there's no crime on Bonaire, if there was it would be in the Bonaire Reporter, and talked about on Bonaire chat now, wouldn't it?

Cynde,

I think that the natives are getting restless.

The policies of this board, while I do understand your reasoning, have a chilling censorship on getting information out to its members that could help.

Crime is not a big problem on Bonaire, it's the cloak of secrecy that amplifies the concern. Openness is always a better alternative to censorship unless there is a real problem that defies solution.

(Message edited by driftwood on November 5, 2007)

Fellow Brit's - the problem with such an open forum is that crime gets over sensationalised and takes over the board. Some controls were needed to reduce hearsay and to make reports on crime more objective than subjective.

I know it seems harsh but it does keep things in control.

crime has a way of "taking over" everything...

(enquiring minds want to know)

control = a particular slant...

sorry, keep trying

Folks, if you don't like the policies of BT, please go somewhere else. We the moderators have talked until we are blue in the fingers in regard to why we have the policy. Please search the board and you will find out why. You can always apply to become a moderator (no garauntee you will be accepted) and then we can have you moderate all of the crime threads...it's fun!

Now, I need to get ready for my PAYING job.

End of Rant.

Cynde

(Message edited by modcynde on November 5, 2007)

Most of us know there is a bias on this newgroup to hype the good news and ignore the bad. Rule 1 is never to say anything bad about Bonaire.

The problems come when a new person posts about a bad experience (food, crime, service, etc.) and are taken back when the negitive attacks on the post.

I do not know what the moderators can do except try to keep an even hand in editing the posts.

I am new to bonaire talk , im going to bonaire in a few days for the first time . Some friends had an incident in August , im afraid if i give details i will be deleted from this posting . It made me check out bonaire and the crime on the island . I was shocked at what i found . Yes , crime is planetwide , but for an island of less than 15000 , bonaire is in bad shape. When the postings get pulled i feel the mods are sucarcoating the environment they love . I dont think anyone believes everything they read on the internet to be the hard truth , it is a place of information and misinformation . The beauty is making your own decisions on what to believe . Spammers are everywhere , we are not little kids that need protection. As a mod told me that some crime storys are made up to slander certain establishments , just as many are made up to say how great the same places are . This is an awesome site for travellers and residents of bonaire . You are breaking the main rule of free speech dudes , wake up .

Jim, et alia,

We do not have bias against bad news. Bring on your bad news BUT back it up with fact.

We try to keep an even hand on Bonaire Talk. We do not tolerate hearsay, personal attacks, and unverified crime reports. As Cynde put it so well, if one does not like the policies of BT, one is more than welcome to go elsewhere. The web is a big place and we are doing our best to keep Bonaire Talk civil, honest, and open.

Rant off
ModMare

In times past BT had troubles with trolls posting and running on about fictitious crime. The present policies are aimed at preventing that sort of thing and have been effective. It would be wonderful if all that is posted on BT could be believed but that has been proven to be untrue; that would be much easier on the mods. If there is a fault, it lies with the trolls, not with our Mod Squad.

All 'free speech' comes with reasonable limits of civility and decency. All moderated web sites have limits for the benefit of the majority of users who are looking for good information and conversation. The put-downs of BT and the mods that appear here speak much about the posters themselves.

BT is noted for it's good content. Let's keep it that way. Not Pollyanna but real, as Mare said.

Hey guys......

Isn't this arrest thing on Bonaire getting a little out of hand? We all are concerned about crime, but if we feel safer in another country, (Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, etc)....go for it!!

I was not here at the inception, but I would assume bonairetalk.com, was started to provide a forum where everyone in love with the place could share their overwhelmingly, mostly favorable, experiences.

We are NEVER going to be as safe as we are right here at home!! Be thankful where you live, and not critical of wherever you choose to visit!! Take the precautions that have been outlined, time and again, and you'll be just fine!!

Want a crime and hassle free vacation? Call a travel agent, and go to Myrtle Beach! I hear the diving is to die for!!

Tad

Glen, well said!

Lets move on, you may remember this thread started out with good news!

Excellent point Glen!!!

The cup is either half full.......or half empty! And if I had my way, there would be a "No Whining" sign posted everywhere!!

I suppose it is the governments job, and taxpayers in general, to insure a hassle free, PERFECT vacation? Can you forward me the number I need to call if everything doesn't go according to plan? I need to bill someone for my poor decisions!!

GREAT news!!!

Christine broke down and called the detective who worked so hard on our case, and he emailed her back today that the safe with our passports in it (YES STILL IN IT) had been located. No mention of the $$, cameras, computers or anything else, but hey a start!

To me that is MOST EXCELLENT news!

Btw, many MANY stolen items still remain unaccounted for. I have a glimmer of hope for the rest. We were talking about getting someone on island to go try to ID our stuff, if it's still there. If you can't tell, I'm very happy! Just to know they cracked this ring of thieves, to know they ARE the ones who broke in our bungalow, and our passports are still there is a great start.

Very good news, Kathy. High hopes for many more of your things to be recovered!

Awesome news Kathy! I will continue prayers that your other things will be recovered also. Hope someone on island can help you identify things!!!

Kobi

KRALENDIJK — En konekshon
ku detenshon di un grupo
grandi di sospechoso ku último
tempu a hasi nan mes kulpabel
na diferente ladronisia tantu
den kas, kamber di hotèl i
apartamentu i un entrada
hudisial ku miembronan di
Kuerpo Polisial a hasi na
diferente kas tantu den Tera
Kòrá komo Antriol kaminda
diferente artíkulo prosedente di
ladronisia a keda konfiská,
hefe di Kuerpo Polisial Boneiru,
Jan van der Straten, tur
hende ku último tempu di un
manera òf otro a bira víktima
di ladronisia pa pasa na Warda
di Polis Playa pa wak si nan
por rekonosé nan pertinensianan
prosedente di ladronisia.
Esaki ta konta pa tantu pa
esnan ku a hasi denunsia
komo esnan ku pa un òf otro
motibu no a hasi denunsia.
Tambe ta pidi pa esun ku por
rekonosé e kaha fuerte ku tin
riba e foto ku ta kompañá e
artíkulo aki pa pasa na Warda
di Polis Playa.
E dia i orario ku por pasa
Direktiva i personal di Fundashon Cas Bonairiano,
Fundashon pa Kredito Bonairiano i Imprenta DECO,
ku honda pena ta partisipá fayesimentu di
señor Franklin A. Brunken
tata di nos kolega Esterlin Brunken
Pas na su restunan i forsa na famia
pa rekonosé pertinensia ta awe
djaweps promé di novèmber
entre 9’or pa 12’or di mainta
den sala di reunion na Warda
di Polis Playa
On scuba board someone had a link to this article with a picture of a safe can anyone transalate what it says ? Thank you

Good luck Kathy. I'm glad to see such great efforts within the police dept. I hope we get our stuff back, I will call the PD tomorrow and see if I can get more info. Thanks for keeping us updated.

This mornings email...but I have not heard from the detective as he mentioned. Christine did, and maybe she'll hear from him again today! We're getting somewhere!

Dear Kathy,

I understood that police officer Melvin Sint Jago contact you. We had an open day to show the stolen things. Of course if you have somebody on the island, he or she is welcome. Please contact mr. Melvin Sint Jago on 005995121830. I saw your creditcard etc. Greetings van der Straten

If he saw my credit card then maybe my wallet is still intact (SS card, etc.)

ScubaBanker:

Offensive text deleted by moderator.

D'oh

May I say that again? No, you may not.

Ok, now I got that of my chest. Text deleted says what?

Go ahead, try. Just try!

Jon,
Please refrain from vulgar name-calling. Either be civil or be gone.
ModMare

(Message edited by modmare on November 6, 2007)

scubabanker, you could try this website for a "translation" (sort of)
http://www.donamaro.nl/papiamentu/

jon, I did read why you had said before the text was deleted, and do not understand where it csme from. I did not read anything in ScubaBanker's message to anger anyone, nor did I notice it was directed at you. So please let us understand why you went on such an attack!

Jon, you take your meds or I'm calling your mother!

Hey GUARDS, go easy on Jon.

Been lurking mostly lately --- what GREAT news for Bonaire, Kathy, Larry, Christine, Autumn (I think I have that name right), Jamie and all others who have been victimized.

What a weird twist this thread took.... good grief. Shame on ya'll for turning it sour.

Thank you Eddie and Susan for the good news updates.

Back to lurking for me.

Hey Jon, email me. I can't figure this out.

Christine is all over this, lol. She's talking to the detective on our case, I'm writing to the gov'na, the head of tourism, and the chief of police. Our double duties (by sharing a bungalow) are getting somewhere. I'm just glad our passports are found. That's something I never expected, but prayed for, wished for.........so I'm happy. Even if nothing more is found, I'm happy. Anything else is icing on the cake.

Jon, really, let's talk.

I also should have mentioned what great news this is,. Hopefully lessons will be learned and noted that indiviuals can not get away with terrorizing innocent victims. I certainly hope that you all get most of your belongings back.

What I can get of the Papiamento is not very earth-shattering, mainly a summary of events, reaction from Jan van Straten, etc. It does say that recovered items will be on display on "next" Wednesday from 9 to 12. I assume that was Wednesday the 7th.

And a short comment to Tad Jones: I've lived a lot of places: Tachikawa, Japan; Bellevue, Nebraska; Montgomery, Alabama; Ames, Iowa; Phoenix, Arizona; San Jose, California; Belnem, Bonaire; and Hato, Bonaire. Belnem and Hato come closest to the safety I felt in 1960's Nebraska.

Kevin.......

I would love to have the "Cahunas" to move south to Bonaire like you did, from the states. Crime does not worry me in the least!! While I feel safe in my own neighborhood, I AM NOT safer, here in the states in general, than I am on Bonaire!!

Apparently, out of 25 or 30,000 visitors to Bonaire each year, if a few have a bad experience, then it is a MAJOR PROBLEM!! Jesus.......let's all just put it into perspective!!

What's the murder rate on Bonaire? Aggravated assaults, kidnapping, etc.?? Not even close to what it is here in the states!!

Again people, Bonaire may not have the police department budget, or the number of jail cells we do here in the states, but how about us all just taking a few common sense precautions?

Bad news on my end. The passports, credit cards and the safe were burned...almost beyond recognition. I wish he'd have told us that and not gotten our hopes up. Ah well.

Tad, One thing that you need to consider to put this into perspective is the population. I live in a small town of 16,000 or so, and our crime rate is most likely lower than what is being reported through BT'rs.( Never mind what doesn't get reported, or those who live on island, have problems that we do not hear about) I am no expert on crime, however what some of us have seen & heard, is that there seems to be no punishment. Every now & then a huge raid takes place, people are arrested, things quiet down for awhile, and then it starts all over again. The break-ins & robberies will not stop (or be less frequent) until those who are responsible are punished.

Just my 2 cents

I agree, Jan. They should be locked up and punished somehow. If not, the cycle repeats and repeats....in some weird way it seems to enforce the thinking mode of "crime pays" if they get a hand-slap only and then are set free to do as they please. Must be some way to discourage these types of crimes...be it by incarceration or some other effective way. Need to have a deterrent of some sort to let the bad guys know "crime does NOT pay"! cb

I have been following this conversation since it began. I always worry about my renters leaving stuff laying around and becoming victims of senseless crimes.

Kathy, I'm sorry all of your possessions were destroyed. Don't look at it as an ending, but something new is beginning.

I don't understand (and I don't want to) why things took such an ugly turn. Sometimes its ok to agree to disagree. If we just keep quiet and listen we can learn from each other. Does't mean you buy into it, but even the most convaluted logic may have credibility if we just listen!

Now for crime. I rode out Katrina in my 2nd floor condo on St. Charles Ave. I left 2 days afterwards after my neighbor and I evacuated 1/2 dozen of so elderly from the building. Although I consider Bonaire my "home", I was born and lived all of my life in New Orleans. I am fighting to stay in my city of birth. Crime, politics and all. No crime is "good" but I can live with the problems on Bonaire.

Shelley

Jan and Carole,

I agree on the punishment!! I would like to see it as well! Just not sure what to do about it. Of course I would like to see all thieves locked up. However, I am not privy to local police department and jail budgets they have to work with.

How much would it cost to house inmates and feed them on Bonaire? How much would it cost for a larger and better trained police department? Are we talking a few bucks per tourist, or massive tax increases to keep the island safe from crime?

How about making copies of passports, CC cards, etc. and keeping them separate from your other items? Travel insurance for your gear, and trip? Does staying in a private bungalow or house, as opposed to a hotel or condo with security, entail more risks? If so, are you willing to take it?

Again, I have never been the victim of crime on Bonaire, and if I had, I would be pissed!! Might make me rethink my precautions to take, or even my destination. But...isn't this their country and their decision on how to best handle whatever problems arise?

There is only one way to decrease crime, and that is not through long draconian punishment. The USA is a good example of that.

Poverty breeds crime. Poverty descends from exploitation, poor education and lack of opportunity.

There really is little opportunity for the kids to progress further than subservience to tourists. There is no industry and no manufacturing on the island.

For those lucky to have work, the salaries are pitiful.

If people really want to do something for Bonaire, they should invest heavily in people rather than profit.

Antony, if you provide a good education for the kids, what will they do with it on Bonaire?

This is truly a big problem. Get well educated and again no opportunity but to relocate.

How many people would have there masters in dishwashing?

I agree Jerry but just because there is no outlet for skilled people, it doesn't mean that we should give up on the kids.

That said, the amount of businesses run by Bonarians and the amount of professional positions filled is negligible.

Education is far more than the "three R's". It is about responsibility, work ethic and personal skills. It these areas alone, there are many positions that could be filled by Bonarians in the tourist trade that are now occupied by Dutch and South Americans.

The UK has a similar problem. 1,200,000 people from Eastern Europe, the majority filling unskilled positions while double that amount of indigenous Britons are sat at home claiming welfare.

Bonaire could learn from our mistakes!

Jerry and Antony?

Ever been to the Caymans? I go a lot. They don't have welfare, as we know it down there. But, they do have something else!! Before an employer can fill a position, they must give a native Caymanian the opportunity to turn down the job first! If they want it, it's theirs!

Ever been to Cozumel? For $50 bucks a day, we have our grocery shopping done for us, meals prepared, our drinks refreshed, and the dishes done each night. There is a "Teacher", who keeps 35-40 of that, and a "Student", who gets 10-15. Also, the extra income for them was not "minimum wage". It really made a difference, for an investment of 3 or 4 hours a day! And that's split between 2 couples!!

Ever been a cabana boy? I've been one for years! How much would you pay to never rinse your own gear, carry it back and forth to the room or secure locker, etc!! Bottom line, is that there are unlimited ways to succeed, and even more ways to fail!! How can we help best, the local residents of the island we love so much?

Tad

Actually, Tony, US punishments are far from draconian. Most infractions are plea-bargained, and most prisoners are released long before the maximum length of their term. Besides, we stopped using capital punishment for most felonies years ago, and I still believe that that was a serious mistake.

Ted: one of the big issues is the definition of "local". When I needed to hire people for the hotel, I did have to advertise in the newspaper, and I was not allowed to get a work permit to hire a foreigner unless I could show that no qualified Bonairean had applied. All sounds good, until you realise that no work permits are needed to hire Dutch employees.

Kevin,

So basically, while this protectorate or that may give lip service to ensuring native islanders are given a chance to work, most exclude their own citizens from back home? Didn't realize that, but it really doesn't surprise me!!

All businesses need to be free to hire the most qualified people in order to be successful. We can't be forced to reach down into the "Bottom of the barrel" talent wise, each and every time!

Again, getting back to Cozumel, they have schools geared to training young locals in many different aspects of the tourism industry. Food preparation, divemasters and assistants, hotel management, etc........Not that it takes care of all of it's citizens, but at least it's an effort.

Sounds like if someone could come up with a way to employ and train local Bonairians as apprentices in the tourism industry (Without governmental interference or constraints) might be a business opportunity there!!

I think you got my point backwards, Tad. Many resorts have a primarily Dutch staff, frequently interns getting degrees in tourism. DEZA did a survey this summer of hotel jobs, and the interviewer let me know that I was very unusual: only one work permit for a foreigner (and she had lived on the island for 9 years, since she was 13) and no Dutch staff. In most hotels, the vast majority of the Bonairean and Latin staff work in cleaning and maintenance, and the management staff is Dutch.

If they really wanted to increase Bonairean employment, the first step would be to place the same restrictions on Dutch workers that they do on Latin workers.

Tad, There are schools that do teach those who want to further their education in the tourism arena. I know of a freinds daughter, who happens to be in Aruba at school. There are also other programs available to those who want to learn culinary arts. The problem with any resort area, even in the states, you grow up, get educated and can not afford to live in the place your were raised.

While on Bonaire, I spoke to many of the Bonairians I met about life growing up, the job prospects for their children, their educational needs, etc. as I also was born and grew up on the islands and have a brother, sister-in-law and niece on Aruba. Those I spoke to around my age (50's) had to be sent to Curacao to school after I believe 7th grade, if you were fortunate enough to have a relative to live with there. I also noticed the point Kevin made above and Jan. There are now many males and female professionals in Aruba now in all walks of life, but it was a long haul. Most had to be educated in Holland or the US and then didn't want to come back, as they had assimilated in their new surroundings. Now they are. Bonaire is lagging behind in educational and job opportunities. The parents didn't have many opportunities educationally, or job wise, but times are changing, slowly. In my work experience I found it well worth it to find someone with potential and train them. It's not easy, but worth it. While at Hoppner House, I was told of one young man who was at the Windsurfing School, because he wanted to learn to work at a place like that, because he loved it so much. It's a small step, but an important one. Think of the number of Bonairians who are Dive Masters/Instructors, windsurfing teachers, own their own shops? Not many, of any. I think we can encourage, where we know we can, without - I don't know - disloyalty?- to those whose services are enjoyed and used now. I got on my box again. Just don't kick it out from under me yet. I just got back and am full of hopeful ideas!

Thanks Marilyn for some insight. Please stay up there on your box!!

Well we spoke to the PD several times. They have recovered some dive watches, but not one matching ours. We have received our check from the insurance company. Only about $1200 short of buying a new watch.. Oh well, we plan to keep in contact with the PD in case of new developments, and of course in hopes of more stolen items being recovered. PS, Kathy, thanks for the info it helped.

Having just been on the island, and talked to the local people about the issue of crime, I've come to the opinion that crime and punishment is viewed quite differently by Europeans.

I was told that in the future when the robbers were apprehended, "social modification" would be the punishment of choice.

In America we have the same thing, I think it's called no fault auto insurance??

Bill, you mean because our US system works so well that we are the worlds largest prison state? Because our criminals leave jail fully integrated back into society?

If your car doesn't work, don't tell the other guy how to fix his.

Seb, just because my brakes don't work doesn't keep me from telling you that your tires are flat.

Both countries suffer from underpunishing crime. Burglary is a heinous offense, one that cannot be tolerated in civilized society. Both countries tend to treat it lightly. If these 11 people were facing 50 or 60 years in jail, we wouldn't be worried about them breaking into any more homes.

In many countries selling or transporting drugs is a capital offense, even that doesn't stop people from doing it.

In Europe we try to make better people out of them and reintegrate them in society rather then locking them up for a long time (thus making sure they study the fine art of crime in prison) before setting them loose on society again...

Agreed, sometimes we take this too far, but at least we're trying!

Eddy, I just noticed we're almost neighbours :-)

Bob, you're right! Small world...even smaller diving community! Looks like our daughters aren't too far apart either, mine is 5!

I sense a Mini Meet in the making.

Eddy,
Learning new skills is the reason I suggested 50 or 60 year terms. If you lock them up for 60 years, it really doesn't matter how much they learn in jail ... 80-year old burglars don't tend to be very effective.

[sarcastic mode] We can of course always go back to cutting their hands off.......[/sarcastic mode]

Hi Eddy, yes on the picture our daughters aren't too far apart.
Unfortunately that was taken 3 years ago on Bonaire :-(
She's 8 now.

We also have the same camera, although mine is still without the housing.

Did you marry the girl you met in Portugal :-)


(Message edited by bpsmits on November 19, 2007)

Eddy
When did you become muslim?

The Suadi's only cut your right hand off for the second offense. For cultural/hygienic reasons (lack of toilet paper) it is considered very impolite to hand a Saudi anything with you left hand. For the first offense you get to spend some time as their guest and your family will have to feed you because they won't.

Hi Bob,

If you're looking for a housing you should totally consider the Hugyfot housing, it is fantastic. Well build and easy to operate.

No, did not marry that girl, she wasn't marriage material as they say ;-) Had loads of fun though!
Did you like my web site?

I think most of the bickering on this thread is about what most of the postings call petty crimes . They will become a lot more serious when someone wakes up in the middle of one of these petty crimes and takes matters into there own hands , rightfully so for what I would consider a home invasion, and kicks the crap out of one of these idiots or even kills one of them . Not so petty then hey?

Everybody eventually gets out of jail. Proper planning for it is the job of government. Far from being a deterrent, I think long sentences tend to make criminals more dangerous and violent.

Ken, I suspect you would end up in a jail in Curacao, where I believe the last US citizen to murder someone on Bonaire now resides. Writing off the ipod sounds like a better deal to me, but to each his own.

I do not own a weapon, even here in the suburbs of Philadelphia. However, if I were on Bonaire, and someone came into my room and woke me, I do not honestly know if I would show any restraint. I would also have someone lying next to me who means everything in the world to me. If I thought any harm was going to her, either he or I would be dead.

To SURVIVE would be my reaction! If uninvited, I would be forced to bleed the intruder in his tracks! U.S.M.C.

Seb , This is not about the I pod, camera or cash being stolen ;it is about this whole mess being called petty? One of these times this is going to happen to the person who will be threatened for there life and react as anyone in that situation should . Protect yourself and your family with any means possible . I dont think anyone even a U.S. citizen would be sent to jail for protecting themselves in self defense especially if you have been violated in the night by some unknown intruder. If you think that this is the case on Bonaire I believe we are all in a lot of trouble. Thanks for listening

The law here is pretty simple, Ken. If you hurt the person that is stealing from you, you get to go to jail too. Silly, yes, but it's the law.

I do not completely agree Kevin, assuming that the law on Bonaire is the same as the law in the Netherlands.
You are allowed to apply force to a person that is threatening you or your family. The amount of force you are allowed to apply varies; it has to be proportional That’s where the Judge steps in.

If a shoplifter steals from your shop and gives it back when you catch him, you may hold him/her until the police arrives but not beat him.
If a person on the street steals your wallet, you are allowed to hit him in a struggle for your possessions, but you have to stop when he surrenders.
If a burglar breaks into your home at night, scaring you to death with a weapon, the Judge allows that you act violently (no fire arms of your own) to protect yourselves and your family. Given the circumstances, you may “even” overreact given the fact you are not supposed to think 100% clear.
If a skinny burglar with a small knife enters your home on Bonaire and unfortunately finds you with six marines on a diving holiday, you are allowed to use less force.

It’s a grey area, and the outcome is influenced by the quality of your lawyer, the burglars lawyer and the Judge.

Bob.
The law on Bonaire is only guided by that of the Netherlands, it is not the same.

In the UK we have similar laws as you that are wrapped in a vague statement of "Reasonable force".

On Bonaire however, if you hold an assailant in your house, you could be done for false imprisonment. If you attack an assailant, you would be liable to answer to the court regarding any injuries that they may have.

The last that I heard was that the Government were looking into the right of people to protect themselves and their property without fearing criminal action themselves. I am not aware of a change in law as yet.

Some may not like it but that is the law of the land. Crime isn't a huge issue on Bonaire but it is made noticeable because of the small population.

During my two and a half years there, I felt welcome and safe. Most of the local people that I met were the most generous and friendly that I have encountered.

That's why I went for a two week vacation and stayed for more than two years!

Anthony,
That is the way I understand the law on Bonaire as well. I know when we moved here, we had to leave all of our firearms back in the states. The recent arrests show that the NRA was correct all of these years. If you outlaw guns then only outlaws will have guns. One thing I notice is that a lot of tourists here tend to leave things laying around. Such as wetsuits and other gear hanging on the porch. Most of us wouldn't do that at home. We moved here from Charleston SC and we feel much safer here than we did in Charleston. No reports of murders on a regular basis, home invasions, rapes, car jackings, drive by shooting, etc. But we still take precautions here to make sure that what belongs to us remains with us. Common sense can go a long way. Have a beautiful Bonaire day!

Sure, let's start arming residents and tourists alike--that will make everybody MUCH safer. While we're at it, let's have people carry their guns into restaurants, bars, and shops like they do in so many American states. And don't forget to carry one in your car! That way you can blast the guy who steals your flip-flops!

I apologize for the snark, but I fail to see how making Bonaire into an arsenal like America is going to help the situation.

Antony, I just reread your post. Dos it really say that you went on vacation for 2 weeks and stayed 2 for 2 years? (Or did you return later)

Sorrows, besides your "snarking" I totally agree that arming everybody will not ne the answer.
I have yet to find a country in the world where people were/felt safer because everybody was armed.

It's an interesting point you're making Anthony, supported by Sandy, about "reasonable force" not being applied on Bonaire.

If you're a lawyer, I will have to take your word for it, but otherwise I hope you don't mind that I want to investigate this a bit further. It intrigues me.

If you ask people on the street in the Netherlands, many would answer that you will go to jail if you beat up an intruder. And many of them find that ridiculous if “reasonable force" is applied.

I emailed a lawyer on the island, but received an email back that due to insurance issues they are not allowed to answer such a general question.

As a Brit, I am used to living in a country where firearms are illegal and that suits me fine.

The NRA have a not so hidden agenda hence their motto. A more accurate one would be "Arm the good guys and the bad guy will come armed"

Despite our quaint laws in the UK, gun crime is negligible so the argument that guns should be available to all doesn't wash.

I think that the USA is a good example of why NOT to arm the public.

Bob.
From personal experience I can tell you of an example.

A friend of mine on the island (indigenous Bonarian) had his Mothers house broken into. Unfortunately for the burglar, my friend and his brother caught him and gave him a good slap.

The would be burglar reported his injuries to the Police and the outcome was that his hospital and dental bills had to be paid by my friend and his brother.

On the subject of my stay on Bonaire. My Wife and I came for a vacation in June 2004, returned to the UK and sold everything. We returned to Bonaire in October 2004 and stayed until July of this year.

We are now living in Scotland. Brrrrrrr

Antony

Because of our geographic, history, land mass and culture we view gun ownership differently in the U.S.
The U.S. Supreme court has agreed to review the gun band in Washington D.C.--so by May-June we'll have a definite answer on our future as gun owners.
You spoke of having few or no guns in Great Britain, have you seen the recent articles where the British police are complaining about being "outgunned" by the criminal, it's made the U.S. news are several occasions?
In America when you enter someone house, with the intent to steal or harm, death is considered a reasonable outcome--by punishing the house owner, for protecting himself you give the advantage to the criminal---that's what's wrong with you system?

Bill.

I don't agree.

If a criminal is fairly certain that the home owner is armed and is allowed to fire at will, the thief will go equipped. In the UK, the chance of a criminal entering the house of someone armed is practically zero. The criminal also knows that in the event that he is armed and caught, he will get life in prison as opposed to 6 to 12 months.

Arming the public perpetuates the problem. Good guy gets gun, bad guy gets gun. Most gun crime in the UK is gang orientated. Generally speaking, they kill each-other which is fine by me. Unfortunately a few innocents get caught in the crossfire.

In an interview with young black gang members in East London recently, several were asked "Why do you carry a gun". The answer? "Because our rivals do"

That just about answers the argument.

Several of you seem to have a distorted view of the US.

Most people don't own firearms though they could.
Very few people regularly carry firearms with them
Most (possibly all) states prohibit firearms in bars and restaurants that sell alcohol.
Most individuals feel neither safer nor less safe because guns are available.
I live in a medium size city, about 1 million residents, and feel safe.
I don't keep all my stuff locked up.
I do leave things out in my yard.
The laws that regulate how we treat criminals who try to steal from us vary by state. Generalizing for the country creates inaccuracy.
Some of us do not consider laws that protect criminals in their actions against citizens to be humane.

I believe Bonaire has both the right and the responsibility to develop laws that they believe best serve their society without undue influence from outsiders. Those of us who are visitors must respect, or at least live with, those laws.

I also believe that though vigilante justice may be crappy justice, it's better than no justice at all.

Thom.

I don't have a distorted or, any other view of the USA.

This debate came about regarding a citizens right to defend themselves in Bonaire.

My analogy with regard to the USA is that arming the public does not reduce crime, it just makes that crime more dangerous for the victim.

I agree with you when you say: "I believe Bonaire has both the right and the responsibility to develop laws that they believe best serve their society without undue influence from outsiders. Those of us who are visitors must respect, or at least live with, those laws".

Anthony, the fact is that property crime rates in the UK are higher than those in the US. The disarmed population over there--as well as a lack of adequate punishment--plays a role in this difference.

Antony, you say you don't have a distorted view of the US.

And you say, "If a criminal is fairly certain that the home owner is armed and is allowed to fire at will, the thief will go equipped." That is absolutely wrong. Most home invasions / robberies are by individuals looking for a "quick score" that they will sell cheap in order to buy drugs most often meth. These people do not think and act rationally. They believe they are invincible. A year ago, I called the police about a break-in. I asked the perps (3) for their ID's while awaiting the police. They gave them to me. They waited for the police though I used no force to hold them. Logic would support their leaving the scene. When the police arrived they found 2 of the 3 had outstanding arrest warrants and all had illegal drugs in their possession, burglary tools and more drugs in their car. All were carted off to jail. The policeman told me, though there is no standard behavior (oftentimes they run or act violently) they feel invincible. They don't generally own or carry guns. These could be quickly sold for drugs.

Gangs have guns for sure. Drug Dealers have guns for sure. They are also not breaking into my house or car. They tend to turn their guns on each other here as they do there.

You say "In an interview with young black gang members in East London recently, several were asked "Why do you carry a gun". The answer? "Because our rivals do" That just about answers the argument." This is naivety in spades. So, you believe the word of criminals. Charlie Manson (mass murderer, did not use a gun) said the music (Beatles) made him do it. Another mass murderer who preyed on college girls (I forget his name), didn't use a gun, said god told him to do it. I'm thinking that the Beatles and God don't really make people become mass murderers. There is no reason to believe the word of criminals. There is no reason to believe that they know why they act the way they do.

I think the logic of keeping guns legal is that eliminating them would be impossible given the size and openness of the US. We are unable to do much to stop illicit drugs though we've certainly tried. We are unable to stop illegal immigration. Why would one think authorities would be more successful eliminating guns. If one accepts that outlawing guns would not stop outlaws from having guns, the logic of outlawing guns goes away.

Bonaire is probably in a much better position to actually control firearms than the US is. Bonaire certainly has an easier border to patrol.

Has gun control reduced crime in the UK? Canada? Oz? I truely don't know but I presume not. I do know that in recent years violent crime rates have dropped in most major cities in the US.

George.

I am not sure where your figures originate from. According to The Bureau of Justice Statistics, recent figures suggest that as where the USA have seen increases in burglaries, Britain has seen a decline resulting in a 20% difference per capita of population.

In the UK 2006/07 there were 53 deaths resulting from firearms in a population of 60 million. I fear that this would rise dramatically if the public were armed.

I personally would leave the UK if the public were allowed to carry guns.

It is a sad state of affairs when ones personal security and safety can only be assured based on who is quicker on the trigger.

(Message edited by bondy on November 28, 2007)

Property crime rates by nation:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pro_cri_vic-crime-property-victims

Many European nations have property crime rates above those seen in the United States. Since the early 1990s, crime in the US has dropped significantly, while similar rates in Europe have remained steady (or increased).

Antony
Your last comments to me is very pacifistic---it's why in the 20th century America had to bail Western Europe out of their predicaments.

Criminals prey on the weak, and the weak systems!
That is why most property crimes are committed while the owners are away, only occasionally do property crimes happen with the owners present--this is the American scenario?
In Europe, and Bonaire, the criminal rationalizes that if he is harmed while committing the crime the owner is at fault and will have to pay a price---to me that just emboldens the criminal?

George,
This is what "your" web site says about property crime:

DEFINITION: People victimized by property crime (as a % of the total population). Includes car theft, theft from car, burglary with entry and attempted burglary. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.

I don't think that's exactly what you wrote.
Very good accountants in the UK probably :-)

I'm not sure how reliable these statistics are:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_acq_percap-crime-acquitted-per-capita

Here you will find crime statistics:
DEFINITION: Total acquitted in criminal courts. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1 million population.


Cyprus scores: 39 million acquitted per 1 million population.
Spain almost 5 million!!



(Message edited by bpsmits on November 28, 2007)

And if you do believe the statistics, beware:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/cri-crime

Thom, you wrote:

Most (possibly all) states prohibit firearms in bars and restaurants that sell alcohol.

I'm sorry, but that just isn't true. Many of the Southern and Western states allow people to carry concealed in bars and restaurants. In Texas, you can carry in a church. In Utah, you can carry at a school.

Here in my own state--Virginia--you can carry concealed in a restaurant that does not serve alcohol, but not in one that does. You can, however, OPENLY carry a weapon in a restaurant that serves alcohol (we don't have bars in Virginia). You can also carry concealed in a rec center, an amusement park, a library, pretty much anywhere except inside a school, church (unless you have a "good reason") or courthouse. You can carry your weapon into the state legislature, but not on federal property.

For more information, please visit www.open-carry.org.

You guys can argue about how unsafe other countries are for property owners, but bottom line: when it comes to gun injury, gun death, gun suicide, school shootings, family annihilator shootings, employee shootings...WE WIN!

The NRA has put it's money-grubbing nose into the affairs of third-world countries for far too long. They have no more business giving advice about violence and crime prevention than George Bush has giving advice about foreign policy, war strategy, and diplomacy.

I hope Bonaire can find some reasonable and successful solutions to its crime problem. But when it comes to gun policy, I hope it can find a better example to follow than the U.S.

Here in MY Virginia we have restaurants and we have lots of bars; h*ll we even have a saloon! I'm a pistol packing, NRA supporting woman in VIRGINIA. Stand up next time you're talking so I can hear you better!

We can quote state gun laws 'till we're blue in the face but here's what VA laws say: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_StateLaws.shtm

My Dad is a retired police lieutenant so I'll bend his ear about gun laws too just to broaden my knowledge. I was raised to protect myself. In the meantime, as for me and my house? We'll be protected by many guns including my favorite; Desert Eagle 44 mag. made in Israel by IMI (Israel Military Industries). Goodness knows they know how to fight over there.

Firearms aren't the answer to Bonaire's problems nor ours. I think any of us would attempt to defend ourselves if put in a precarious situation regardless of country or state; at least this family would. Maybe I'm the minority? At that moment I would not be debating the laws of said country or state I was in; again that's just me and this family.

Bonaire should never suffer the quantity of crimes we have in the US simply due to the sheer difference in population. My hope is that we can all continue to visit this beautiful island and feel safe and take our own precautions when returning. Petty crime will not stop this family from coming twice a year.
I'm off to renew my NRA dues.

Kobi, all those bars and even that saloon are required by Commonwealth law to serve food; it's also required that a certain amount of their profits come from the sale of food. That is why I say we have no bars in Virginia, only restaurants that serve alcohol. I admit, sometimes the food they serve is questionable, but they do have to serve some sort of sustenance to go along with the alcohol.

But enough about that! This is a board about BONAIRE. We all love it and wish its citizens and residents all the best!

It used to be that a restaurant in VA had to have half it's receipts in food for the first three years, and a lesser percentage thereafter. Unless the laws have changed, Sorrows is correct, there are no bars in Virginia, only restaurants that serve alcohol.

Virginia is, however, the leader in providing guns to criminals in the United States, an achievement the Old Dominion can surely be proud of. From the Cradle of the Presidency to the Cradle of Criminals.

Though I think some of the laws of Bonaire ought to be changed, I don't think arming the populace would be the solution. It's never worked anywhere else it was tried. And of course, since it's not my country, it's none of my business. Tourists vote with their feet.

Hey seb
why are you giving guns and criminals exclusivity, most gun owners, at least in the U.S. are law abiding citizens.
From what I've been reading the London criminals have bigger and better weaponry than the police---isn't there a gun prohibition in England?

Sorrow
Here in Nevada, you may carry a weapon without a permit ---it just has to be visible at all times and if stopped by the police you must immediately inform,
we also have a concealed weeping permit, which the state MUST issue, unless they can find fault--mental issues, domestic violence, and felon are the only exceptions,---just imagine how that would go over in Europe--lol
You now have me curios in regards to bar/restaurants?

"It is a sad state of affairs when ones personal security and safety can only be assured based on who is quicker on the trigger."

Anthony,

Really have to disagree with you on that one. Your personal security depends of putting rounds on the target not being first to mindlessly spray lead. We live out in the country, the response time for the Sheriff's department at best 15 minutes. How else would you advise me on how to defend my family? I can't think of a single house within 3 miles of us that is not armed. Sort of like Switzerland where the reservists take their machine guns home with them and just as peaceful. Not a "sad state of affairs" at all.

In Texas, we have reasonable force laws as well. If someone breaks into your house, you have an absolute right of self defense that includes deadly force, just make sure that the intruder is fully through either the door or window before you erase them. The original law stated that you could "defend your property to the range of your rifle". As you can see we have moderated somewhat since the 19th century.

I could not imagine living under a system where the individual did not have the right of self defense.

My haven't we gone a long way from thieves being arrested on Bonaire.

Bill.

I have no wish to make this into a USA v UK debate, it appears that my original comments have been thrown off course.

That said, your comment: "your last comments to me is very pacifistic---it's why in the 20th century America had to bail Western Europe out of their predicaments" was a little uncalled for.

The USA have a pretty shoddy record in their self appointed capacity as "world Policemen" and have relied and still do rely on the help of the UK.

I am not a pacifist and I would support armed combat when and where necessary. Unfortunately, our misguided Government has supported the gung-ho actions of the succession of village idiots that have been voted into the White House which I believe has made the world a much more dangerous place.

No doubt if I were in the States now, I would be marked down as a Commie Pinko and have a Flowers By Irene van parked outside my house.

Luckily I am not and I can enjoy the freedom of speech that I do.

You have a nice day now!

Jeff.

You are right, this topic has spun off on a tangent.

I believe that everyone should have the right to protect themselves and their property, maybe the US goes too far and maybe the UK does not go far enough.

I from my own experience have ended up in Crown Court after beating a burglar at my parents house to a pulp. As it happened, I got away with it but only because he dropped the charge and asked for 14 other offences to be taken into consideration. Not bad seeing as he had only been freed two weeks earlier.

As I said earlier, the biggest deterrent in the UK is the law associated to coming equipped. As it is unlikely that any homeowner would have a gun, a burglar caught with one would get life.

It might not stop burglaries but it does stop many people getting shot.

"Virginia is, however, the leader in providing guns to criminals in the United States, an achievement the Old Dominion can surely be proud of. From the Cradle of the Presidency to the Cradle of Criminals."
LOL.....Whatever; jab on. Just be factual and not muffled while seated. You're like Jack Frost; always nipping at our toes. If you can take it, civally, so can I.

Being factually challenged isn't an excuse. Right now we're the meth capital; traveling up our main interstate artery. I'm proud to call VA my home. I'll pack my gun now and always. There are 2 kinds of people; those that obey laws and those that don't. These people live in Bonaire and by GOD they live in VA, NY, GA, CA and in every state of the union. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. Don't you watch those slanted NRA ads? You will never disarm this country; ever! Stop trying.
My house if FULL of guns and I have never shot anyone or killed anyone.....yet We will, ALL, never agree so we just have to agree to disagree And that's OK.

Back on subject....If I were to reside on Bonaire and someone wanted to harm me or home; action would be taken to protect said. It's a natural instinct for me. I totally agree that arming folks on BON isn't the answer. I appreciate their laws and their attempts to muffle crime there. Prayers are that they continue to crack down on the petty things and we can continue to come and feel safe. To date, I have never felt unsafe. This is good.

(Message edited by ayorkiemom on November 29, 2007)

Antony
It's not your comments, but the perceived attitude which was displayed!--and as for your freedoms you talked about, we could be talking German! It was really nice when we came to save your butt, but now you don't like our attitudes.

Remember this, it wasn't YOUR World Trade Center that went down in a heap! I can promise you that in the future the U.S. won't have to save Europe, because Western Europe is done---you'll be reporting to Tehran!

MODERATORS!!!! Please lock this thread. It is way off topic and is getting way out of hand.

Being the topic starter I have to agree with Tribs.

If I would have known this topic would take this direction I'd never started it.

What a load of cr*p...

Moderators, please don't lock this.

Sure, it's way off topic. Big deal, it is neither hurting anyone nor disparaging Bonaire. It is allowing people to vent their feelings, frustrations, and angers. This is the only way people have even a hint of a possibility of consensus. This thread is certainly not politically correct but, political correctness has never resolved a single issue. It merely masks the issue while it simmers, allowing some people to feel so good about their illusion of a kinder gentler world.

Eddy, it's OK.

We're all human and all have feelings. We're passionate about our countries and our lives and we need to have thick skins. Things do tend to morph rather fast here & any public forum for that matter. The initial post was just in inform us and I guess we ran with it; sometimes on the track sometimes off. It's alright though; thanks for caring about Bonaire and I hope you and I and other visitors will continue to feel safe when we visit.

(Message edited by ayorkiemom on November 29, 2007)

Bill.

Thanks again for you "Hands across the ocean" sentiment.

Historians have proved time and time again that even though American intervention shortened the war, the remaining allies would have triumphed albeit with more loss of life and over a longer period.

The British have gone to the aid and assistance of the USA time and time again. Sometimes their only reward has been to be vilified by the rest of the world or for our personnel to be mown down by American "Friendly Fire".

I don't think that the Americans are in a situation to help anyone. Their forces are overstretched through the many wars that they are waging (and losing) all over the world. Their trade deficit is at an all time high and their economy is in tatters while the mighty dollar is worth little more than toilet paper.

Of course, it's great for us Limeys with our buoyant economy and powerful currency, we can travel the world on the cheap.

I admire your patriotism Bill and I have many friends who come from the States. What I do take issue with is your inept President who drew the world into an illegal war based on lies while the perpetraitors (The Bin Laden family) were flying out of the country on September 11th ready for their next deal with George Snr.

You can't blame us Brits for that, you voted him in, TWICE!

I believe the question here is: Should politics be allowed on Bonaire Talk? I have not read one thread here on BT about politics that hasn't caused hurt feelings for someone. No, I don't have rose colored glasses on, I am looking at this clear eyed and Bonaire Talk is not a political forum, there are websites out there for folks to discuss politics. I believe there has to be a line drawn at some point when discussions turn to politics. Much too heated a topic to discuss on BT IMHO and should be banned. There is a time and a place for everything and I don't think BT was created for political issues. M2Cents.

Everyone else has put in their 2 cents worth so......

We all live in a free societies, with the ability to elect representatives to pass, or repeal laws. If you choose to live in a society where law abiding citizens are not allowed to have guns to protect themselves, that is absolutely your right! You are an educated adult and have every right to your opinion.

So do those of us who believe we have every right to defend ourselves and our family from intrusion into our home. We believe criminals are the aggressors, with absolutely no "Bill of Rights" to count on when they want to steal from us or do us harm!

Who is right?? We both are!! None of us has been given a free home to live in, titled in our name. We worked for it! We all have the right to make decisions regarding how we operate our homes, and our own backyards.

When I was a kid in the 60's, we used to join hands around the campfire and sing Koom-Ba-Ya. Believed that if we all just agreed to disarm, everything would be fine. Make love, not war! As I've grown older however, and looked back on history, call me crazy but....it's not gonna' happen.

Finally Anthony, after the American Revolution and the war of 1812, the British and Americans have been staunch allies. Apparently, now that we have provided foreign aid and help to everyone and their brother, we ARE stretched a bit. I think it would be interesting to see how much of the taxes we citizens pay goes to help those oversees, as opposed to other countries.....percentage wise.

Bottom Line Is This: If you come into my backyard, or, my neighbor is harboring someone that harmed me, I'm going to come over and take you out!! I know, I'm a cowboy! Can you spell "Nevile Chamberlain" How'd that work?

Antony, I swore I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but...I would like to remind you and all our other European friends that not ALL Americans voted for the village idiot. As a matter of fact, the majority did not.

Not ALL Americans are reactionary, gun-toting, jingoistic, Fox-watching, torture-loving, constitution-deriding, simplistic followers, either. Please remember that.

A LOT of us were against this war BEFORE it began. They can't forgive us for being right. They can't admit that they were wrong. They can't admit that they have got us into a horrible mess that has hurt us in every way--economically, politically, and militarily. They can't admit that the preening idiot prancing around the flight deck with his "Mission Accomplished" banner behind him wasn't such a great guy, after all. They've been marching behind him in lockstep for so long they don't know what else to do.

Please pay attention to the following comment:

"I can promise you that in the future the U.S. won't have to save Europe, because Western Europe is done---you'll be reporting to Tehran!"

Just a few years ago, your tragic future would have involved reporting to Baghdad. Now it's Tehran. This is the enemy-du-jour of the neo-con Republicans. And we STILL haven't gotten the guys responsible for 9/11--our much-vaunted reason for two wars and counting. But Iran is next, and this time, Antony, let's hope your government shows some sense and doesn't go along with another of Bush's excellent misadventures.

I also hope that some of our good patriots here--who obviously know how to handle a gun in a tight situation--will do the right thing and join up. The army is taking recruits in their 40s now. Private contractors are taking employees who are even older.

Now that most have said "their" political peace.... I would like to know what happened to those they caught - released??? shipped off to Curacao/Aruba??? Let's get off the world domination discussion - BT is for those that have a love and respect for Bonaire - so people let's do that.. Again, my father always told me "Opinions are like ah's everyone has one, some are just bigger than others"...

Sorrows.

I would have assumed that the following statement: "I admire your patriotism Bill and I have many friends who come from the States. What I do take issue with is your inept President who drew the world into an illegal war based on lies while the perpetrators (The Bin Laden family) were flying out of the country on September 11th ready for their next deal with George Snr" would have indicated to all that my problem (as yours) is with your elected President, not American individuals.

Our Government have not got the guts to turn round to the USA and say no, like for example, the French did. Fortunately, that Prime Minister has gone and the current one (who was not elected) is on the ropes.

I believe that our relationship with the USA should be maintained but not on a master and servant basis.

I am personally so sick of this thread! Someone, please put it out of it's misery!!!

Bonaire Talk is not about what is going on this thread. I come to Bonaire Talk for discussions about Bonaire, what's going on island, friendships, sharing our common love of Bonaire, CC for some fun and discussions of the good and bad going on in our lives, but this stuff is way out of line with what Bonaire Talk has been created for!!!!!

Reality bites, all over the world, no country is PERFECT, get over it already, quit bashing each other. Take it offline, thank you very much.

Reality here is that Christmas season is upon us, be like Snoopy and Red Baron for pete's sake, peace.

Right nearby 20 minutes from me, I could go to the mall and Christmas shop, I don't as there is a gang there raping women and car jacking, and 20 minutes the other way, hard to go to Philadelphia anymore without fear of getting shot from gang members or drug fights and taking a stray bullet by mistake. That is real life here and Bonaire Talk has always been a haven to come to and not have to put up with crap like this.

Sad to see what is happening to my favorite place to come and chat.

People kill people using guns. Usually they kill someone they know. If we are talking facts, the gun in your house is many times more likely to harm a family member than to defend the home. Frankly, armed homeowners without any conflict training are not likely to come out ahead in a gun battle.

As far as no politics on Bonaire Talk,. Debbie, everything is politics, we might as well close up shop.

I was raised to NEVER point a gun at anybody unless I was prepared to use it, ie: kill them. Guns and violence are glorified in the US media, while education and civility are in continuing decline.

Jesus would not have a gun.

Some gun facts from Utah, that hotbed of liberalism.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

Anthony,

When was the last time the USA attacked Britain? How many times have you all attacked us? How many people on this thread are calling Tony Blair or Gordon Brown "Inept".

What is it about the USA that everyone hates so much? We came to this new world, and just asked that everyone else "Leave Us Alone". Was everything laid out on a silver platter when we got here? Did we steal something from you? Are we all just dumb idiots, that don't give a crap about how we hurt others, and have somehow bumbled our way to the economic and military superpower?

Think about what you are saying, or implying! Do you really hate us that much? Most of us are law abiding citizens, that get up and go to work every day, raise our families, and pay our taxes.

We believe in God, keeping government OUT of our lives, and helping those less fortunate than ourselves. However, that is changing!! Socialism is slowly creeping into our society as well! Soon, we will join you in your 1250 feet square flats. We'll pay 50% in income taxes, or more, for those of us that actually work. We will not be allowed to defend ourselves, for the "Common Good". We'll have socialized health care and either wait in lines, or go somewhere else.

All great societies fall! Greece, Rome, the British Empire, etc. We will too! Just hang in there!!

Seb, thanks for the reply, I don't agree that everything is politics, but hey, I don't agree with alot of what's going on in this world today. And Jesus would not have a gun as they were not made yet in that time era. Sorry to be anal on that one, couldn't resist as I don't understand what Jesus has to do with what I said or anyone said. I am not a religious freak either.

Think I will bow outta here as this thread is not where I want to spend anymore time as politics and religion do not mix.

Seb, tx for the statistics.
Scary, especially the suicides of children <15 in Ireland!! But also the large number of accidental death's of children < 15 in the USA.
I'm glad the Netherlands did not make the list.

Those that wish to continue may do so with each other privately as this thread is now closed.

ModMare