Well,
Not sure if this is where to post that (Jake - move it if you think it should be somewhere else).

This is something that affects all divers.
----------------
Fellow Diver;

I wanted you to know that there is a new petition online that sends a FAX to scuba manufacturers protesting retail price maintenance, restrictions
on service parts, and "voiding" of warranties if products are either
purchased from "unauthorized" outlets or privately resold.

Adoption of these policies will improve dive shop and diver relationships and result in a more competitive marketplace for scuba equipment in general.

Your support is urged for this important petition, and it will take only seconds of your time and a few clicks of your mouse to add your voice
to the many others who have already signed this important petition document.

Please go to:

http://diversunion.org

to read and sign it!

Thank you!

Perhaps it is my dark nature showing, but nowhere on this site does it say WHO this guy with an axe to grind against dive shops is. "Divers Union" claims in its banner to be the PREMIER diver's organization, yet then says it is just a "loose" assemblage of unidentified scuba divers. This was hashed out ad nauseum on the Rodales Diver To Diver web board. Too bad it hit here too, IMHO.

If you want to by over the internet, do so. If you want to support your local mom & pop shop, that's fine too. Whining to the industry that they are protecting their dealers sounds kinda silly, at least to me. Not even GM would let two Chevy dealers open up in competetion across the street from each other. And for sure GM would not accept liability nor honor warranty for parts THEY didn't install through their "authorized" channels.

I think somebody has too much free time and needs a nap.

Just MY opinion, your mileage may vary, void where prohibited and batteries not included.

Well,
This started on www.scubaboard.com by a guy with the alias genisis. He certainly isn't hiding from this, if thats what you were implying.

As well, this is not an axe to grind with the dive shops; its with the manufactures. Read the FAQ's on the site, and the petition:

"Q: Is this some kind of "anti-dive shop" thing? Do you have the local dive shop environment and want to see it destroyed?
A: Absolutely not! This effort is all about fostering good relationships between divers, shops, and manufacturers. It is our belief that we can only achieve this in an environment free of coercive business practices, including but certainly not limited to restraints on the pricing authority of the local dive retailer.

In fact, it is our position that such restraints, along with those on service, inherently harm the relationship between the local shop and the diver in many different ways.

You cannot build a strong relationship without trust. You cannot have trust as long as people are hiding information and misleading people. The current system provides too many incentives for bad behavior, and not enough of them for good.

Altering that - and strengthening the local dive shop environment and its relationship with the customer base - is the purpose of this petition and web site."

Randy,

If you knew the innards of the dive equipment industry I think you'd be in shock how archaic some of the thinking and strategies are. And with that in mind, no petition will change their opinion that what they are doing is what should be done.

Market forces and time, as well as more open thinking equipment makers and mfgs will end up doing that over time (or the old dinosaurs will simply fall over and die if they fail to respond). And the smart dive shop owners will do what they have already been doing - earning their clients loyalty by providing excellent service and response, while simultaneously not gouging their clients on equipment prices.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

Jake

PS And my dive equipment money is spent evenly between dive shops (Bruce Bowker's here on Bonaire & Divers Den in Manchester NH) and Internet/discounters (Leisure Pro in NYC & Divers Direct in Sunrise FL).

The way I look at this petition is that it is not likely to make a difference. HOWEVER - how much will be accomplished be doing nothing?

For the small effort it takes to sign this petition, its worth it (if you aggree with it in principle obviously)

Darryl

Doesn't take much to find the person behind the site, by the way - just look at domain registration records for diversunion.org:

Denninger Consulting
Karl Denninger
314 Olde Post Road
Niceville, FL 32578
US
8508974854
8508979364 [fax]
karl@denninger.net
http://www.denninger.net

BTW, I can't sign the list - I'm not in North America :-)

Jake

That makes sense - Gensis's AOL handle is kdenninger.

Yeah, I guess you can't sign Jake. But there are plenty of people here you do live in NA and only get to visit Bonaire infrequently

DArryl

I DO apoligize if I am sounding like a major flamer of this thing.

I guess my "negative" side says that something doesn't smell right. That's all. I mean, you can buy TUSA or Genesis products and receive their factory warranty no matter where purchased. Dacor/Mares are working with Divers Outlet in Florida and Georgia to sell and service their gear on-line and in store with full factory warranty.

I am simply puzzled by the motivation behind this petition drive. Is the gentelman looking to open a chain of "Jiffy Lube" style dive shop franchises? Would he like to compete there in Florida with Divers Outlet and can't swing a connection with ScubaPro/Oceanic/Aqua Lung? Does he want to develop a "DIY Scuba repair" Info-Mercial?

I reckon I'm just real hesitant to put my name on a petition when I'm not positive what office somebody is running for. Must be all these years living in Chicago. LOL

Or maybe the layer of permafrost forming around my head is freezing my brain too.

Randy,
No, he does not want to start a "Jiffy Lube" style dive shop. Please READ the petition and the FAQs. They explain very clearly the goals and motivations for this petition. There is no basis for those comments IMO.

You have this thing pegged completely wrong. Most manufacturers DO NOT allow selling online. As well they most certainly don't do what is proposed by the petition. Here's the proposal of what manufacturs should do - at least 2 of the 4. None of the manufacturs that you mentioned pass this.

1)Pricing on product is determined solely by its dealers, and there is no coercion or threat of termination of the dealership, nor any other action or inaction threatened or taken, as a consequence of a dealer selling at any price of his or her choosing, regardless of whether the price sold is above, at, or below the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. The only control that these manufacturers exert over dealer pricing is determined by the price they charge to their dealers.

2)Warranties for all product sold by this manufacturer are valid regardless of where the original purchase is made, and consumers have a right to receive said warranty service at any dealer authorized service center or depot.

3)Parts for products sold by these manufacturers are available from their dealers on a nondiscriminatory basis, as with product itself.

4)Dealers are free to set the retail price of parts as they see fit, again, without restraint or threat of action regardless of their selling price. Manufacturers may apply warning labels as they deem appropriate to the packaging for said parts if they are of a sensitive nature or require special tools or training to properly install them.
Service information, including service manuals and classes, are offered on a nondiscriminatory basis to all comers, including but not limited to the general public, dive shop professionals, and others with an interest in learning how, in a properly-supervised classroom setting, to maintain and repair this manufacturer's equipment. Certification of completion of said service courses does not imply, however, that the manufacturer considers that person or shop an "authorized service center" for their products; it denotes only competence to perform the certified repairs or maintenance.

Hi Darryl,

I read every word on the website, twice, and before making my first post here this afternoon. And perhaps I am the last 54 year old naive consumer in the marketplace as well. But I believe there is a hidden agenda that won't be found in a FAQ. Something just doesn't ring true to ME. Why on earth would a company sign on to abolish a LEGAL business practice? Why would I want to make the huge investment in a neighborhood store in today's environment without some measure of vendor/dealer territory and pricing assurances? And much MORE to the issue, why in the name of your gods of choice, would I expose myself to the obvious wave of lawsuits that I would be forced to expend my hard earned dollar to defend myself against, when my customer injures or kills himself, as a direct result of his own stupidity, with parts he bought from me to repair his own life support equipment? Anyone with the life experience in America that god gave gophers knows full well there would be lawyers lined up from here to the Antilles to join the hunt for their 30% of the tort judgement.

Now, if your pal could get all the lawyers in North America to agree to not sue dive shops or parts suppliers or manufacturers, THEN mebbe we got somethin' here.

DSAO

Randy,
I'm certainly not an expert on law - so I can't comment on the legality of the manufacture's practices. This was brought up in the initial talk about the petition, and here was one response:

This is not a petition to ask for companies to stop illegal practices. If it was it would be to lawmakers and the FTC! It is a petition to ask for companies to stop DISTASTEFUL practices. While restricting parts sales and service information may be LEGAL, its DISTASTEFUL and is where a major part of the problem comes from. Your car warranty issue is not quite true - that oil change invoice can indeed say "bulk oil", and if the manufacturer wants to claim that the problem is lube related THEY must show that the problem was caused by oil that did not meet their published standards. If the standard is "SAE SG, 5w30", and that's what's in there, your warranty is good. There's nothing wrong with buying Penzoil in 55 gallon drums instead of plastic quart bottles! Manufacturers of outboards have tried this gambit with using "other than OEM outboard oil" before, have been sued, and have lost - repeatedly. If an O-ring is specified as 90 durometer and of a specific size and material, who you buy it from is not material, nor can you condition a warranty on the use of "original" parts - provided the replacements actually used meet the manufacturer's specifications.

Hi Darryl,

I think I'll end my involvement in this issue by simply saying.. "Okey-Dokey". Sign it if you will, don't if you don't. Whether or not you can win or lose a lawsuit doesn't change your need as a store owner to get a lawyer on the clock at major $$$ per hour. And my auto analogy refers to GM warranteeing a brake job that YOU did at home, regardless of the parts source. It ain't gonna happen, and your widow is STILL going to get convinced to sue the parts store, GM, the brake pad manufacturer, the place you bought the tools, and the people who stood in the driveway and watched you work. All requiring defense in the courts. The USA tort system sucks. But that's another petition for another day.

Like I said upfront, something doesn't seem right to ME, just me, and only me. I'm only the boss of me and I keep myself pretty busy just doing that. LOL

I'm with Randy on this one....just doesn't smell right.

Folks,

Hidden agenda or not, the site is interesting. While I do not agree with all of diversunion opinions, I do agree with some.

First of all to qualify - disqualify myself. I run a diveshop for a family which started in 1953 by a man who wanted to bring the sport to the average person. I have been here for 13 years, the last eleven full time.

I agree with diversunion in believing that what profit we (diveshops) choose to make off of an item should be made by each diveshop alone. Jake is right in calling many of the practices archaic. I swear that in a few cases the prices set by the manufacturers/designers are even driven by egos.

Likewise what products a store chooses to stock from each of the companies they deal should be based upon what the owners/managers would dive with or feel good about selling not decided by some corporate bean counter a thousand miles (or more) away. Of all the reps I deal with, only two, one a friend of both Jake's and mine and another who reps another great line (no advertising intended here Jake) want me to stock the gear from their lines that I/we would personally use and feel good about selling.

Regarding selling parts to people who have the training. We have never had a problem doing that. Being from the northeast we know many independent instructors who have been certified by manufacturers to perform maintenance on their equipment. All we ask when we first meet one of these individuals is to see their certifications. No big deal to them, just covers our butts (eleventh commandment folks). Now to something I disagree with.

Where I totally disagree with diversunion is, selling overhaul parts to uncertified untrained people - not gonna happen on my watch. The sport we enjoy as you all know has its own inherent dangers. There is no way I am going to sell repair products for regulators, no matter how much profit I make, to someone who is not trained-qualified to make the repairs. OUR REGULATORS ARE LIFE SUPPORT!! We are not talking about changing a muffler here folks.

On to something else I have read post about and mentioned in diversunion- internet sales. We (diveshops) are all sad to lose sales, would be lying to ourselves if we said we were not. But this is the real world and it is 2003. I buy some of my computer and photo stuff online, why because that guy down the street does not have it, does not know what it is or wants what I feel is way too much. In these cases I receive the full warrantee just as if I bought it local.

Regarding how we choose to react to lost sales and this has only happened to all of us diveshops. When that diver my staff or I spent that whole morning or afternoon with brings his or her gear in that they bought on-line for servicing. What to do? Easy, the same thing we originally did, WELCOME THEM. Cannot take things personal, plus we are glad they trust us to service their gear. Many times in the past few years after a call to the scuba manufacturers we have even been able to get these people warrantee coverage for parts did not cost us anything for the phone call used their 800 number. And many times the good will fostered by this means sales of other equipment or dive classes to these very divers that some shops will consider "Second Class" Guess those guys forget that they advertise
"Dive Training, Dive Travel, Dive Equipment Sales and Service". I really feel sad when I read other Bonaire Talkers who purchased some of their gear either on-line or from catalogs say they are made to feel welcome in their local shops. Based upon the BTrs I have had the pleasure to meet, those shops are losing two things: (1) any future sale and (2) some potentially great dive buddies.

I know that I am not alone in this view on customer service. I believe that the two great dive operations Jake mentioned , one in Bonaire and the other in New Hampshire practice the same policies. Seems like some others forget the most important and valuable thing they can offer "Service". New Hampshire by the way is not a real state - only an upside down mirror image of the great Republic of Vermont.

Jake, didn't you fail to mention another great shop in say Derry, NH Underwater Photo-something?:-)

All, I apologize for this long winded post, I do not post often compared to many of you, but the topics covered in the diversunion site, and recent post I have read on this great board regarding denied customer service to other BTrs really stirred me up. "

I encourage everyone to sign it who:

1. Only wants to buy off the internet - you will never be able to play touchy feely or try it before buying.

2. You want to have to send your scuba equipment to some repair mill that takes weeks to service it and if it's not right weeks longer to fix it.

Ya sounds like a great Idea to me???

Read the whole petition first folks. As I said I agree with some of it, not all, which is why I can not sign.

Call me a "Dinousaur" regarding selling life support via UPS. Being Old School I do not/will not ship life support just to increase profit.

When I bought my original equipment many years ago, it was assembled and tested in front of me by a "Certified Technician" The person who did all of this for me, personally knew the workings of all the gear I was buying, explained every question I had, including "Why are you testing that brand new depth guage in that thing with the port hole on top?", and gave me many suggestions regarding maintenance.

This is the way I bought my regulators then and is the only way I personally would buy it now. Even if I did not work in a dive shop.

Only my opinion. We all have one.

Question: Are overhead costs of running a brick and mortar SCUBA shop that high, requiring the higher prices at a store compared to mail order/online order?

Certainly service, availibility of answers, accountability, price, warranty and the chance to try stuff on are all important when choosing gear.

I will be another not to even be tempted to sign.

The business practices the site rails against are not necessarily as unreasonable as some seem to think. I run a business which sells computer equipment and peripherals as well as various services. Nikon, for example, sets target prices and price minimums that can appear in advertising. Is this reasonable? On the surface it seems to be interference with the merchant's business. However, Nikon spends considerable money promoting its products, and the dealers benefit from that. Nikon knows it cannot succeed with only 2 or 5 outlets. It needs a broad sales channel. Why should Nikon not take an interest in ensuring a continued channel?

Other manufacturers I've worked with have worried a lot less about such matters. Linksys comes to mind. Yet they were recently trying to find a way back into the hearts of the smaller resellers, as they've learned they cannot penetrate the entire market by selling via buy.com and compusa.

Every manufacturer must find its own path to success. If that path crosses legal lines, write the FTC. To be sure there've been some cases where manufacturers have been over the line.

Bottom line: If you don't like ScubaPro's "no internet sales" stance, then buy Mares, who are clearly supporting the effort by Divers Direct to sell their products. If this is your hot button issue, then vote with your wallet.

Forgot to mention when I said "it just doesn't smell right".
I am a manufacturer of recreational marine products competing on a national level.
Personally, I buy scuba gear the same way I buy trucks
(1) check some internet pricing for general ranges.
(2) Go to my favorite store/lot etc.
(3) Ask lots of advice, try on, get more opinions.
(4) Always ask for my "good, loyal customer discount"
example "come on Bobby..is that the Wally price"
I pay more then the internet pricing by a smudge...but Bobby will look after me...and my business is important to him...and that is important to me.

John,

If the mail-order/online store company also has a real dive shop, providing dive classes, compressor(s) air fill or blending stations providing pure and safe air/nitrox and in people like Walt's case mixed gas fills then the only difference might be quantity discounts from the suppliers. The cost difference between what many scuba companies charge the smaller dive shops and the mega stores which buy and sell much more of their product can in itself reflect the difference in cost which must be passed on to the end purchaser in order to turn a profit.

As a business man yourself, you must know that that huge cabinet manufacturer will be able to charge less compared to the one-man operation because of overhead expenses. Although of course the smaller cabinet maker usually provides a much superior product and service! Am I right?

Now if you are talking about a warehouse with only an order taking office, we are in no way comparing apples to apples regarding expenses.

The warehouse vendor usually does not have between $15,000.00 to $50,000.00 tied up in their compressors, filtration, blending, and gas storage systems. In as much they do not have the expenses related to maintaining and operating these systems, i.e., filters, specialized lubricants (no 10w-30 motor oil here) electricity, hydrostatic testing of storage cylinders, overhaul of compressors/boosters and valve/line repairs.

The warehouse usually does not have the expenses related to providing quality diver education i.e., instructors, dive masters, pool, scuba equipment, liability coverage, etc., nor does it have the expense of training/retraining of staff or their attending required updates which are usually done at a regional/national seminar with associated travel expenses, i.e., travel, lodging and meals.

The warehouse usually does not have the expenses related to a repair facility such as, certification/recertification of repair technicians which usually involves travel expenses, i.e., airfare, lodging and meals, to regional/national seminars away from home. Equipment such as: flow benches to check regulator performance, test pots to verify depth gauges/computers, ultrasonic cleaning machine(s) for cleaning parts, ultraviolet lights to check for contamination of O2 cleaned regulators/valves/cylinders (not your dime store black light we are talking) eddy current testing machines for aluminum cylinders, tank tumblers aggregates and cleaning solutions to repair oxidized/rusted cylinders or to clean cylinders for partial pressure blending.

The warehouse usually does not have the large inventory of specialized tools designed for and only applicable to regulator/valve repair - adjusting procedures (can not or should I say, should not use any regulator repair or adjusting tool to drive a nail, tighten a screw or change a tire).

The warehouse usually does not have the expenses related to maintaining experienced sales staff, i.e., their training/retraining regarding product performance and benefits. Again this is usually done away from site at either regional/national seminars with the expense of travel, lodging and meals.

Wally, thanks. It is people like you who make it possible for many of us to stay in the game. One way your local diveshop is able to stay in business and in turn give you prices close to mail-order/on-line purchases is by your repeat business. Off course by doing this you make them able to give you that "Wally Discount" and by doing so you ensure that they are able to cover their overhead expenses which benefit you by the "Services" they are able to provide that you use:-{)} No reason to stay in business if you are still not making money 3 years after start-up.

Oh yeah, in the case of our Bonaire Dive Operators the expense of travel for their retail, repair and professional staff becomes "International Travel".

Finally as Walt said the Warehouse does not allow "touchy-feely" nor do they usually stay late to take care of your problems.

Walt, what have I missed here?

A local business invests in inventory, showroom space, advertising, parts, training in sales and service, and even sometimes special tools and equipment for servicing what they sell. It's called overhead - an investment the retailer has made to be able to provide you with service and selection.

As a customer, you may not even be aware of a product until you see a small shop advertising it or see it in their store. Then you can ask their advice, try it on, pick a color, pick a size,etc.

To then turn around and buy it for the lowest price on the internet is just not right. (There is nothing wrong with comparing prices, to make sure the local retailer is not totally out of line.)

If you begrudge the local retailer making a reasonable profit, they will not be there in the future when you need them. Imagine not being able to get your equipment serviced, or buy last minute items you need before leaving on a dive trip.

It is not uncommon for manufacturers to restrict online sales of their products in order to protect their dealers. If they don't, those dealers will not be there to display, sell and service their products, and it will hurt the manufacturer as well as the consumer.

Tom I think you pretty well covered it.

I had this customer calling every one of my dealers in 3 states pricing a custom boat. Since I price out my customs I figured out what was afoot pretty quick. I call the guy direct and tell him he needs to work with his local Sundance dealer.
He blows me off (and is a little rude) So I tell him he needs to buy a boat built by my biggest competitor who is into this low price game. Boy was he mad.
I don't think he bought one of my boats, which suits me just fine.
Bet who ever sold the DiversUnion guy his gear wished they hadn't.
Beer and surf break is over....back to the tax returns.