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Diving Bonaire: Question...for those like walt or very experienced divers...
Bonaire Talk: Diving Bonaire: Archives: Archives 1999-2005: Archives - 2002-11-26 to 2003-04-30: Question...for those like walt or very experienced divers...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 4:47 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

i got into a discussion with a friend about deep diving, holding breath, all that. we started talking about how narcosis screws your judgement up, like hitting the inflate button on the bc rather than the deflate button and then jetisoning to the surface and the sad outcome that would inccur...so...here is my question...purely hypothetical of course, as neither of us would even think of doing this...just a question of diving physics...

my friend says that if you went down to say 100 feet, then took a deep breath, and went down another 100 feet without breathing, came back up to the 100 foot mark where you took the breath, and then began to breathe there would be no adverse effects...i say that there would be...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ida Christie on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 4:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Your body would still react like a soda pop.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ida Christie on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 5:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, I just read your heading. Not an expert. LOL.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:09 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

ida, that is what i think would happen. it would still be holding your breath at depth, and even if you came back up to 100 feet, your lungs would feel the pressure and explode...however, my friend thinks that nothing would happen because you heald your breath at a starting point, went down, then came back up to your starting point....

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM KENNEDY on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:18 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Good Question!
I'm by no means any expert but as I understand it takes longer to de-gas than to take up gas. So that being the case, if one was to decend to 200ft, after taking a breath at 100ft unless you took longer to ascend you would have more N in your system? Hypothetical!! Than again deep skin divers take a breath on the surface and drop to 300ft plus and return to the surface? SO I would probably say it could be done if one started and stopped at exactly the same depth...

But then again I'm GUESSING! jimini

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 6:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

jim, ok, you have described what my friend thinks...hmmm...i'm hoping that walt III will have some info on this hypothetical question...oh walt...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 9:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Not a registered 'expert' but...

If the question is only ..'will the lungs explode..', the answer is 'no'; simply a return to the same pressure: no 'explosion'. Like any other dive, free or scuba, that goes down and returns to the beginning pressure, the lungs return to the beginning level of inflation. This is the essence of all free diving, beginning at the surface or at depth. One of the laws taught in Scuba 101.

Nitrogen uptake and the bends is something else but I don't believe that was the discussion: it is about as impossible as anything in this world to uptake enough nitrogen on one breath to get DCS.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM KENNEDY on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 10:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I didn't say anything about DCS, I stated that it takes longer to rid of N than it takes to make it.
:>) jimini

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 11:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

ok glen, i will play the devil's advocate...if you go down to 100 feet...you are at 3 atm (god i whish i would have kept my scuba 101 book...wait, was this senario covered in scuba 101?)...anyway, you take a breath, go down 100 feet, and come back up...you would not have lung "expansion" as you didn't breathe down and back up...but what are the effects of breathing air down to 100 feet, and doing this exercise? nitrogen saturation, effect of atm pressure...i.e...could a free diver go to a certain depth on air, take the reg out of the mouth...ride the sled down and back up to that depth and survive without any consequences...narcosis, dcs, etc....

again, this is totally hypothetical, as there is no way that my "friend" and i would EVER do this, i am interested in the physics and physicologcial response of the human body under these circumstances...ok, my friend is my husband, and i really want to win this one:)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 9:47 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde,

Those are all good questions but I respectfully suggest you find your scuba 101 book.

For starters: at 100 foot depth of water, you are at 4 atm absolute since you started at 1 atm on the surface and added 3 with depth.

Discussing all the effects you ask about is really beyond this venue. They are all covered in either or both of basic and advanced courses and are best studied carefully and talked out with a pro. :–)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 2:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

glen, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE NEVER SUPPOSED TO HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILE ON SCUBA...DUH...my question was a very hypothetical question, as it was a discussion i had with someone, and i was curious to find out if anyone had thought of this, HYPOTHETICALLY of course. i don't need you to tell me to refer to my book. again, i know that you aren't supposed to hold your breath while on SCUBA. duh! my question was, i say that holidng your breath at 100 ft (yes, i know that you are at increased atm at that point, duh again), but i say that it is holding your breath regardless of what depth you are at, however, my "friend" believes that it would not have any adverse effects as you started at a particular depth, and returned to that particular depth....but i say it would....so, just forget about the whole thing...i think you missed my whole HYPOTHETICAL WOULD NEVER TRY IT dang point!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Wahlig on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 2:41 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

My useless opinion:

I agree with Glen's first reply. The volume at the start would compress as you descend, but return to the same when you return to the start point. (Not counting the molecular level of gas exchange happening during that time, but the pressure difference would be negligible.) Also, you don't make Nitrogen, your blood absorbs it into solution.

I would tend to believe the small amount of Nitrogen absorbed from one breath at 100ft descending to 200ft, could not cause DSC on the way from 200ft to 100ft. Remember, hypothectically, we are swimming on one breath which I can hold for maybe 3 minutes. The pressure change at shallower depths is always the more dangerous change than at greater depths which is why we are taught to ascend the last 10ft no faster that the smallest bubbles are ascending.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Loo Hoo on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 2:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

thank you john.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM KENNEDY on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 6:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

With an interview with Skin-Diver Magazine two or three years back; Pepin (maybe mispelled) stated that he has suffered from three hits of DCS while breath holding...

Just for you FYI, jimini

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 6:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jim,

Pepin's dives are just a bit outside the depth range and ratio in Cynde's hypothetical case which I was addressing. And I didn't say completely impossible!!! :–)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt III on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 7:08 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

While Pipin was down here free diving the Windjammer he took several breaths off a regulator at about 180 ft after free diving down. It could have been hits on dives like this where he is down deep for 5 to 10 minutes then makes a rocket ascent. I vote for no problem 100 to 200 and back to 100, as long as you can hold your breath that long.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 7:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde,

I answered your first question in my first posting. No effect, especially since you will be using up O2 which reduces the volume of gas in your lungs.

You asked many questions in the second posting. And I understood that this is a 'hypothetical' discussion.

And, yes, these things are all covered in Basic Scuba courses as well as PADI/Advanced Open Water, your stated certification level. Your apparent lack of knowledge in things you state you were trained in, and the mistake in pressures, led to my respectful suggestion that you need some review for your own safety as well as those diving with you.

I will now put my head down and cover my ears in case you choose to shout again. :–)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 8:14 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Walt,

Does your dive planning software address Pipin-style record depth free dives?? Or the dive to Windjammer that you described?? It would be interesting, purely hypothetically, to see what nitrogen loadings it would show.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Lee on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 9:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

jimmi and walt, thank you, this was the type of response i was looking for.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt III on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 7:21 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Glen No it only does scuba Dives.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM KENNEDY on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 12:19 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde Lee~

you're welcome :>)

I must make a comment on some responses about deep diving. I agree with all the people that deep diving (deep dives below 100ft) isn't for everyone. Even dives below 60ft aren't for everyone. However about 2% percent of divers do dive 165ft+ and do it very safety. They are deep divers that go that one step with technical training to enjoy those deeps. Diving in general is fraught with risk, and decompression diving adds significantly more risk. Deep diving utilizing multiple gasses, including Helium , is about as risky as it gets. I know that risk exists and am willing to take that chance and dive safetly as possible. Even the software used by technical divers to plan their dives are experimental and you use it at your own risk. The program states that the Vplanner could indirectly kill you and probably has bugs. One needs to know that technical diving has risks involved. So why do I dive deep? Because it's a new frontier...Somewhere where no one has been before. The hopes of finding something no one has seen for years or has forgetten about. To visit undersea areas where no man has littered. Like Walt, to photograph deep underwater wonders which probably won't be seen by another person. When I read posts about "there's nothing down that deep" I just smile! All deep divers are not completely crazy, but I must admitt, we go against the grain of normal diving. From the very first dive that I made in open water, I knew that my diving would take me to deeper depths, maybe I'm addicted, I don't know but I know I would rather dive 160ft+ than to stay at 80ft.

Dive Safely, jimini

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Lee on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 5:35 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

jim, walt has posted some great pics (taken by bob killorin) of some of the anchors and chains he has found in his deep explorations. It all made sense to me when he said it was "kind of like mountain climing." again, i thank you for your feedback to the question posed in this thread.

now, i had to go back and reread this thread a few times to find out what i had written that would have given someone the impression that i did not understand the basic concepts of scuba. i see that i did make an error in my post of "3 atm at 100 feet"...which in fact, i had meant to type 4 atm at 100 feet (or around 30 meters). my mistake for the lack of clarity of my prose, and not reading my post most carefully when i hit the "post button." i also have a very sarcastic sense of humor, which some must have taken for serious thought. also, i believe the effects on the lungs was clearly concluded early in this thread, and as i had initially querried, i was interested in any or all effects that my hypothetical dive would have...again, i must not have posed my responses in such a way, that had clarity...so, as i have been unfairly critisized as an unsafe diver to myself and those who dive with me, and that i clearly must not understand the basic scuba principles...to you, you do not know me, you have never had a dive conversation with me, other than this particular thread, and you have never been diving with me, you have clearly misjudged me, and my capabilitites. i know that i am by far NOT the most experienced diver...however, if you were to discuss or ask anyone who knows me, or has had the opportunity to dive with me, you would clearly be informed that i dive VERY conservative profiles, as i am clearly aware of and clearly understand and recognize the risks, dangers, and consequences from a lack of understanding the prinicples of diving...that being said, i will lay this thread to rest and move on....and as jim said, dive safely.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JIM KENNEDY on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 10:53 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cyndee Lee~
I'm very sorry if I came across to you as "judging you" or "anyone else" on this board. Experience has nothing to do with how one treats another person. That is not what I'm about. As for if you're a careful diver or not You're Right I never have dived with you so it's not for me to say, from what you have written I would have guessed that you ARE a careful diver. I don't know where you would get that kind of idea from me. If that's what I said, again I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way...Along with deep diving, I also practice respect to others for their feelings and the old saying "to treat people as I would want to be treated". As far as Scuba 101, rereading that course certainly doesn't hurt anyone no matter how much experience they think they have. I make it a point to reread all my scuba&tech material during the winter months in Illinois. I spend several hours each month planning tec dives which I never make just to keep in practice...Again I'm sorry for any misunderstandings. Safe Diving, jimini

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde Lee on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 2:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

hi jimmi, i'm sorry if you thought i was referring to you, i was referring to the posts that were in reference to my last statement in the comment above;-).

i too keep my books handy, we usually don't go longer than 3 months between dives (November to February), however, i often will glance through them as a refresher! on our first dive after a break, michael and i do a very loooong buddy check!

have a good sunday,

cynde

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Sweeney on Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 12:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

This is very interesting to me. We've got overtime at the Fiesta Bowl. I'm hoping for the OSU Buckeyes.

I WONDER ABOUT HOLDING ONE'S BREATH WHEN MAINTAINING BUOYANCY. As long as you are not ascending, it seems to me, it is okay to not exhale. DO YOU AGREE?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Richter - NetTech on Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 12:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bill,

If you ask experienced UW photographers, you'll find that many hold their breath while trying to take just the right shot - both to improve visibility (bubbles are visually distracting) and also to avoid scaring marine subjects.

So yes, from a purely technical perspective, you can hold your breath if you're not ascending. However safe diving practices strongly advise against such action (or inaction as the case may be).

Jake

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Senie on Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 8:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Adding to what Jake said, I had occasion a few weeks back on a dive off Grand Cayman to hold my breath for about 30 seconds to get my bubbles out of a very wide angle shot (see if you can tell which one... images at our scuba pages).

However, I was holding my breath out... I exhaled for all I was worth, and had nothing left in my lungs. After the hold, I inhaled slowly while taking the shot. Still got some bubbles in the frame, but not as many as I would have. We'd just come out onto the wall at a bit below 100 feet. I was shooting silouettes.

No, holding one's breath is NOT a good idea, even what I was doing. But when shooting pictures, I will admit to the occasional breath hold.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Sweeney on Saturday, January 4, 2003 - 11:09 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah, that's right. The most important rule is to never hold your breath. As experience is gained, however, you can give yourself some leeway and revise that rule on occasion.

The subject of U/W photography reminds me of another rule that is, if not broken, at least bent a little. It seems to me the buddy rule is not being followed when you may be unaware of where your buddy is.

When people are taught to drive a car or fly a plane, they are expected to drive or fly solo, that is, without a buddy. Why is it different with SCUBA? I think self-sufficient divers make the best buddies.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wally and Eva on Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 9:17 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Other then when that pesky first stage decides to take a crapper

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem on Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 8:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

i believe one of the secrets here is that most of these learned skills are 'conditioned reflexes'. Like knowing that your snorkel has filled with water because you heard the gurgles as it filled. Or, here, being conscious of depth change vs breathing (hard to do, in my experience). Always best to have air flowing-- or, better stated, to have the airway open! Even if you are not breathing, i.e., inhaling or exhaling, if your airway is open, no harm (which comes from overpressure in the lungs) will happen.

 


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