By Peggy Wages on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 10:04 am: |
While in Bonaire last week, we heard that a diver went missing at 1000 Steps (I think it was on Thursday).
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By Jake Richter - NetTech on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 10:09 am: |
I posted some of what I heard over in Community Chat - look at the tail end of the Winter Flowers thread.
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By Peggy Wages on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 10:24 am: |
Thanks for the info Jake. So, the guy was from Georgia? Me too. I wonder if he was with a group?
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:17 am: |
Yo,
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By Kelly Lott on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:37 am: |
Dave I am in complete agreement with you and couldn't have said it better myself. We were diving with someone in Cozumel who was laughing about going to 110 feet and not even knowing it, because he was "chasing the cutest little fish". I think our profile that dive was maybe 60 feet, I don't remember for sure. You have to wonder where these people were when they went through their training? It's not macho, it's just plain silly.
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By Kitty @ CrystalVisions on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:46 am: |
...And frightened...
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By Jake Richter - NetTech on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:49 am: |
I understand that the divemaster who told them 100 feet max was also pretty ripped by their response/attitude after the dive (also second hand information, mind you).
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By Igor van Riel on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:50 am: |
I do agree with u Dave, but I would feel "better" if we were sure what happened. As far as I know it could still be a "normal" heart-attack. Please do not turn this thread in2 a ranting one: somebody did die and there are people left behind.
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By Kelly Lott on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:51 am: |
Kitty, as you know, there isn't much reason to go that deep anyway. There is much more to see when you stay shallow! Good luck in your move, I'm sure when you have time to think about it you are bubbling over with excitement!
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By Igor van Riel on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:54 am: |
Thanks 4 the info Jake.
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By Peggy Wages on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 11:57 am: |
OK Jake, now I'm even more curious.
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
Jake,
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By Glen Reem on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 12:14 pm: |
If they were diving on a Bonaire Dive and Discover (ex-Sand Dollar Dive & Photo) boat and violated André's rules to the extent related here by DG, they may have been shore diving because they were banned from BD&D boats. André takes no such nonsense from people.
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By Jake Richter - NetTech on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
I know which divemaster you're talking about (and you should be proud of you offspring too :-) ), but I had heard the same of another divemaster, so it appears they did it to more than one.
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By Kelly Lott on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 12:33 pm: |
Igor, I agree with you; however, even if this turns out to be a heart attack death, the fact that they were bragging about their exploits tells me that they are very unsafe. Maybe the heart attack was brought on by the pressure? Maybe we will never know the answer to that, but based on Dave's first hand knowledge of the "bragging", I'd say they should steer cleer of diving altogether. I can understand maybe one person being that careless, macho, and wanting to brag about going that deep, but you would think of the other three or four friends/dive buddies someone would have the guts to speak up and refuse to do the dive for safety reasons. Sounds like they were all in agreement. Hmmm.
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By Randy P on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 12:34 pm: |
My sympathies to the family involved on their loss. If indeed the cause of death was a heart attack, perhaps scuba diving at the time of the event had no bearing on the outcome. I can't begin to imagine how you tell the next of kin someone died while pursuing a hobby. It would be even harder if this incident were easily preventable by the application of common sense and good judgement.
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By Cynde Lee on Monday, December 9, 2002 - 5:22 pm: |
ditto to randy's post...my condolensces to the family as well. Very sad indeed.
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 3:47 am: |
Kelly, I agree.
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By Kelly Lott on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:44 am: |
Well, that's just it, Igor. You aren't only putting yourself at risk, but your dive buddies as well as whomever decides to try to rescue you. I feel so sorry for his family, how do you tell them that he was just careless and it was his fault? I assume if they know nothing about diving maybe that information can be kept from them, I don't know. How difficult this must be. If it was an isolated event, that's one thing, but it sounds like they probably did this sort of thing on a fairly regular basis. I thought about this all night last night and it has really upset me. Everyone out there --- BE SAFE. I hate to go on and on about it, but we really must remember how easy it is to become a statistic. If it means refusing to make a dive with someone who is being careless, then just refuse. It certainly beats the alternative. Now, with that said, everyone have a great day today !
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By Kelly Lott on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:49 am: |
By the way, and of course off-topic... Igor I've never told you, but I just love your profile pic. You two look great together.
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By Peggy Wages on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 11:15 am: |
OK, this is off-topic, too.
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 11:24 am: |
Thanks Kelly
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By Kitty @ CrystalVisions on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 1:04 pm: |
P.S.
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By Kelly Lott on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 1:42 pm: |
Thank you Kitty for that information, I've been waiting to hear something about it. Maybe they just didn't believe what they learned in class about what it can do to you. Once again, to all my diver friends -- BE CAREFUL and be safe.
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By Linnea Wijkhof-Wimberly on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 3:59 pm: |
Another case of terminal stupidity, as one of my instructors used to say. If they wanted to 'experience' what deep depths could do to your body, they could have done a chamber demonstration
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 4:12 pm: |
Thanks for the update Kitty!
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 4:13 pm: |
By the way Kitty, in what paper did u find this?
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By Kitty @ CrystalVisions on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 4:29 pm: |
Igor, I found it in the online Bonaire edition of the newspaper 'Èxtra': http://www.extrabon.com/edishon
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By Peggy Wages on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 4:56 pm: |
I am a PADI scuba instructor, and suppose I will always worry about students/divers being responsible and careful.
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 5:22 pm: |
Peggy,
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By Dave Goodwin on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 5:32 pm: |
Peggy,
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By Igor van Riel on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 5:49 pm: |
Dave,
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By Glen Reem on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 7:40 pm: |
'Divemasters and/or instructors'??? '..qualified to got o 350' on air...'???? Jake had the PO2 ratios above here. Anybody know a course that doesn't teach about oxygen poisoning?? I wonder if the depths they talked about reaching were real???
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By Dean Botsford on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 8:45 pm: |
Police list it as an accident...maybe accidental suicide.
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By mary pequinot on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 1:40 pm: |
How awful, and what TERRIBLE judgment they used! It is indeed a terrible tragedy, and a completely preventable one.
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By Dave Goodwin on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:28 am: |
Glen,
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By Mike Endrizzi on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:33 pm: |
Peggy, Your nickname comment reminded me of a trip to Bonaire in 1998. A few of us were palnning to make a couple of dives in the National Park. I had dove the sites the year before. The current was strong and shore entries were narrow out of the lagoons. They were definitely for advanced divers. We had 5 in our group that were planning to go. One was an instructor and the rest were AOW with experience. One other diver that had just been OW certified two days earlier wanted to go. She threw a fit when the dive instructor told her she couldn't go. This lady had not mastered bouyancy and was not trying to. She did not have her own computer. She always said she would just "stay with the group" to be safe. She didn't even do that. She would bounce up and down like a yo-yo on dives. She refused to listen to the instructor. She said it was her life and she could risk it if she wanted. I finally said that I was not going on the dives. (I was the only one who had made the dives before and had talked the others into going.) I explained to her that I never dive beyond my ability nor WITH ANYONE who I feel is diving beyond their ability because that puts everyone at risk. She finally backed down went with others in our group that day. The five of us made the dives. They still rank up there with my favorite of all time.
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By joe chandler on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:18 pm: |
so where did they get the doubles?
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By Dave Goodwin on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 3:04 pm: |
Joe,
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By joe chandler on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:33 pm: |
i,ve heard of rigs like that but never seen them. more used to seeing permanently configured doubles.
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By Jake Richter - NetTech on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:59 am: |
There's a more detailed article in this week's Bonaire Reporter, although some of the details there conflict with what Dave observed first hand...
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By Dave Goodwin on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 11:27 am: |
Jake,
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By Glen Reem on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:25 pm: |
There are details about the dive, three divers instead of four and a few other differences. Mostly it is an expansion of information about the dive itself and post-dive. Apparently his computer read 305'. And his two 'buddies' were reeling up their down line while he was still at depth.
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By Dave Goodwin on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 2:56 pm: |
Hmmmm....... I could swear I saw four divers go in the water. Maybe one of them wasn't going deep? Or maybe he came to his senses and backed out of the dive early? I may have been a little narc'ed from my 47ft dive, but I still was able to count to four!!
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By C. Kritagent on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 11:03 am: |
To quote Popeye the Sailor, "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more !!"
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By Igor van Riel on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 11:50 am: |
Dear C.Kritagent,
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By Mike Endrizzi on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 1:53 pm: |
I think it is good to try to get as many details on a tragedy like this so that others can understand what happened. Discussions like this can save the lives of other divers. It can wake you up and make you understand that instructors like Peggy aren't just trying to ruin people's fun. Rules and guidelines are for your safety, not to spoil a good time.
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By Glen Reem on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 1:04 pm: |
George DeSalvo, the publisher of the Bonaire Reporter, has given me permission to post, verbatim, their report on the diver’s death at Oil Slick Leap on 5 December. He also outlined his sources for the article: a slightly abridged version of that reply to an email of mine is next. He also said that he has talked to the family in Georgia. This is posted here for information and education purposes.
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By clint harsch on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 3:10 pm: |
Good article. Strange things both real and imagined are seen and felt at those depths. Good thing his buddies kept their heads and continued their decompression assent, there might have been more.
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By James T. McPeak on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 6:52 pm: |
No matter what their insane intents were, I think I can say that we all feel horribly for these guys. What makes people do things like this is way beyond my realm of comprehension. It was a severe tragedy that should have never happened. I've only done one dive at 106 feet, and that was in Grenada diving the Bianca C. I am also the 50 or 60 foot diver, and always will be. This is a tragedy for sure, and I agree it needs to be talked about, especially by Dave. If for nothing else, maybe it will provide a wake up call for other divers that think going down that deep is exciting.
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By Al Schroedel on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 7:58 pm: |
There are old divers and there are macho divers, but there are no old, macho divers.
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By Igor van Riel on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 4:56 am: |
Thanks 4 the information Glen!
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By Peter Cabus on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 6:39 am: |
Just for the record, not all "deep" divers are macho divers.
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By Glen Reem on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:03 am: |
Igor,
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By Igor van Riel on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:16 am: |
Ahhh, thanks Glen. I didn't get that (might have something 2 do with the fact that I'm dutch ).
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By Tom Cousino on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:23 am: |
Thank you so much Glen as well as George DeSalvo.
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By Igor van Riel on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:31 am: |
Great words Tom!
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By Peggy Wages on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 9:31 am: |
I've heard the same saying, a little differently:
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 11:33 am: |
One last comment on this thread, and I'm through....
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By Mike Endrizzi on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 12:11 pm: |
Glenn, thanks for posting the article.
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By James T. McPeak on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 1:16 pm: |
Dave, great words above. I think it is something that we as divers should all live by. Although our sport has some inherit dangers, we can all lessen those dangers with some common sense and common courtesy. Good points above all! I'm glad to know all of you fine people.
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By Robert Deal on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 2:57 pm: |
As we are getting ready to return to Bonaire, I am revisiting the BT board and came across this thread...something of a coincidence given the shared name---no relation, though.
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By Cynde Loo Hoo on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 4:37 pm: |
Robert, thanks for checking in. I know that I thought the same thing when I saw the post (about relation to you)...have a good trip!
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By Kelly Lott on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:45 pm: |
I would like to add, as a victim advocate, that sometimes people just like to "talk" about things like this. It's a sort of debriefing, if you will. This incident/accident has affected every one of us in one way or another. We can talk to our friends at work, or our family, but no one understands like a fellow diver. Sometimes we just need to understand our feelings, and why we feel a certain way. I know this senseless tragedy has affected me and it's nice that others out there understand. Reality is that these things happen, and we need to make sure that it never happens to us. Once again, all you divers out there --- please be careful and safe.
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By Kelly Lott on Tuesday, December 17, 2002 - 12:46 pm: |
And thank you to Glen for posting the article.
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By JIM KENNEDY on Sunday, December 22, 2002 - 10:36 pm: |
I can't image anyone doing a 350 ft. dive on air. That is what "Trimix" is for but with certified training. I have done air dives to 211 ft. but took over a week of dives to work up to that point. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless with properly trainned people. These were no tech divers, they didn't have the proper equipment for that type of dive, not enough gases; not enough backup equipment; and not enough training to know the difference. I have dived with many divemasters and I found some to be less than capable or knowledgible to put my life in their hands. Don't trust anyone with your life but YOU. Technical training is very stressful to the whole body and not for annual vacationneers. People who push their limits will suffer in some way, whether its pulled muscles, shortage of breath or having a heart attack. Training and daily exercise is the only way to prepare for a tech diving along with knowing your limits and ALWAYS having a way out with a backup system. Divers, who tech dive, should have yearly physicals with a dive doctor. Anyone can put on doubles, grab a reel and clip on a single 80 but it takes much more than that to do a tech deep dive safely. There's more paper/computer work to do than what the dives take to complete. Plan; Plan; Plan...
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:02 pm: |
Hey Jim,
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By Walt III on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:49 pm: |
I have resisted posting in this thread until now. Dave am I to understand that one of the #*%king morons that survived is still trying to justify what they had done?
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 1:09 pm: |
Walt,
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By Susan Feldman on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 4:00 pm: |
The thing that amazes me, is that it isn't just "rules", it's science. NO-ones body can handle 350 feet on air safely - it ain't a matter of machismo, it's oxygen and nitrogen at unsafe levels. Sheesh.
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By Walt III on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 5:17 pm: |
Well put Susan. The laws of physics do apply to ALL of us.
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By Linnea Wijkhof-Wimberly on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 5:40 pm: |
Dave, I'm sure I can get the gist of the emails you have received from those bozos' that have lower IQ's than the island's donkeys. Early in my diving career I did one dive to 185 feet on air with an instructor and decided there is nothing down there interesting enough to justify the boring decompression stops. I don't have to prove how 'macha' I am. Diving has enough freaky things that can happen if you get careless, much less than if you deliberately do something completely stupid and suicidal. Those idiots were pure dumb lucky that it wasn't 4 out of 4 that got body bagged back to the mainland.
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By Dave Goodwin on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 5:51 pm: |
Okay, just got e-mail number 4 from my "buddy"....
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By JIM KENNEDY on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 6:59 pm: |
Hi Dave of course I remember you. What the heck you're only ten miles north of me [Prairie Center]. So Mick was there in Bonaire, he wanted me to go but at that time I already made plans with Walt III for trimix course. Health reasons cancelled all my plans for that trip and I didn't get to meet anyone at BT. BUT now my health is on track and the docs gave me the go ahead to continue my tech diving. You see I practice what I preach about yearly doctor visits :>)
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By Glen Reem on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 6:59 pm: |
I think some people from Georgia are called 'rednecks'. Seems these are them. Can't remember whether the term 'rednecks' is because they have spent too much time in the sun (would fit here) or just don't wash off the red Georgia clay. :–)
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By Carole Baker on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 7:30 pm: |
We need Mimi Greenburg to write a note to these guys....sad commentary, isn't it? Carole
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By Fiona Rattray on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 8:51 pm: |
Amen Carole. All of us, dive safe, and a to all a happy, healthy 2003!!
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By JIM KENNEDY on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:15 pm: |
My last two cents to put in this message topic is, that in my mind, the guy was narc beyond belief and probably hit the wrong button on his BCD and kept inflating instead of deflating thinking his BCD malfunction causing him to surface without stopping... Simple enough to do when one is confused..Too bad someone passed away...RIP
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By Dave Goodwin on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 1:53 am: |
Well folks, I agree with Glen, "let them go"...
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By Glen Reem on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 4:57 am: |
Dave,
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By michael gaynor on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 6:45 am: |
If you are referring to ET, he looks 20 but acctually is 28...the main reason to stay away from 16 year olds!!!!
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By mary pequinot on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 9:05 am: |
Dave,
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By Dave Goodwin on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 9:55 pm: |
Mary & Glen: You are both correct. I am finished..... thanks for the convincing.
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By Josie on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 10:06 pm: |
When I took a Safe Driving course a couple of years ago (I didn't HAVE to, I've never had an accident or even a ticket, but wanted to be a better driver, and get 10% off the insurance), the instructor was very adamant about "accidents".
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By Peggy Wages on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 6:48 pm: |
Yikes. I'm from Georgia. Don't believe it, we're not all in the "redneck" category! Of course, there ARE some of those folks hanging around in my family tree (LOL).
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By Leif S on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 1:42 pm: |
This is really turning out to be a wonderful thread. As just an OW diver with <50 logged descents, it reinforces all that I practice whenever I dive.
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By Susan Feldman on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 3:13 pm: |
Leif,
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By Susan Feldman on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 3:15 pm: |
well, that didn't format well...
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By Susan Feldman on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 3:15 pm: |
ack
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By Geoffrey Feldman on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 3:28 pm: |
Leif,
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By Susan Feldman on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 4:28 pm: |
I should say... an O2 PP of 1.6 really does not make a seizure a certainty, but puts the risk of one pretty high. Sorry.
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By Fiona Rattray on Thursday, December 26, 2002 - 10:39 pm: |
Hmmmm, yes, Geoffrey, I've been wondering about the health care expenses for this sort of thing...good point about how resources for Bonairians (sp?) may be better used than for unfortunate apparent tourist (ego?)trips....
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By Darryl Vleeming on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 8:07 pm: |
Excellent post Geoffry. I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one a little bit troubled by Lief's post.
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By Marco Waagmeester on Wednesday, January 1, 2003 - 9:34 am: |
Right Darryl, it's all about Attitude!
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By Darryl Vleeming on Thursday, January 2, 2003 - 2:04 pm: |
Hi Marco,
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By JeffW on Friday, January 3, 2003 - 5:54 pm: |
I'm a recreational diver, but enjoy reading and understanding the technical aspects of the sport.
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By Marco Waagmeester on Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 12:57 pm: |
Yepp Darryl, All sport one can participate in has a risk to it. Even going shopping in the city will have some risk to it (crossing streets) J
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By Faith M. Senie on Sunday, January 5, 2003 - 8:03 pm: |
JeffW, chills don't even begin to describe it. If these guys want to push the envelope that far out, that's their business -- personally, I think they're nuts, but I'm no thrill-seeker. I just hope their families understand when something goes wrong and they don't come back...
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By Rose Gigowski on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 5:20 pm: |
Dave,
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