ok let me tell you about my guide. Guide #6 Jeffrey Kempt is embarking on what I find is an awesome wreck and no I'm not talking the Hilma Hooker, although its pretty awesome too. But I'm talking the Windjammer, Yesterday we got clearance to dive the "Jammer" planned dive time 52 minutes.We located the Crow's Nest at 30 feet, there our descent took us to the keel at 140 feet, continued down to explore that awesome wreck, which by the way is bigger than the Hooker, had a peek inside the wreck explored its cargo of asphalt, if anyone is looking for an amazing guide Ask Jeff to give you the tour, and when your hanging around doing your Deco, behold the beautiful reef on which this wreck lies. It is truly one of the least dive sites on the reef permits will do that.

Bob, what gas and equipment were you using?
And what is your last sentence trying to say?

(Message edited by tursiops on March 5, 2009)

Ah, Bob, stop torturing me...that's been my dream wreck in terms of advanced/trimix training and diving lovely Bonaire for years now :-)

I know Jeff from Wannadive.-great guy.

What kind of training do I need to do the dive? I will be there for 3 months this summer, plenty of time to take some classes.

Advanced Nitrox & Deco precedures? Or do I need extended range too?

Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures "certifies" to 150 ft.
Ext Range to 180 ft.
Trimix to 200 ft.
Adv Trimix to 330 ft.

You really need to get to 170-180 ft to see the wreck, and 190-195 is better.

Some argue that 180 is too deep on air (too much narcosis)...so argue that the Windjammer is a trimix dive, period. Opinions vary. I've done it both ways...and I felt much safer and remember more from the trimix dive. I was well and truly narced on my air dive. I'll be doing it again on trimix next week, and am really looking forward to it.

Bob - thanks for the report - and Mel for the information, as that dive and the required training have been in the back of my mind for some time now. Will look into it more next trip for sure.

Patrick

Deco Procedures only "certifies" you to 150'? Really?...that sucks.
So I'm going to pay someone $400 to teach me how to descend another 20' down? bummer...

Here's something to think about. Jerry Murphy, back when we dove the wreck with single 72s, took a porthole window as a prize. I've done it with single 80s, with a spare at the cross and with double 80s, the last time I saw it, it was kinda breaking down. Actually left a luggage tag at the crows nest but it was gone the next time... Ah the old days when we weren't as bright as the mix gas people... but it's a great dive...

Question for Mel - I have a student who wants to do the Windjammer. I just certified him as PADI AOW, Deep, Night and EAN but he only has a couple dozen dives. Remind me of the requirements for him to get certified to do the Windjammer as a Tri-mix dive.

Thanks.

Dan

Dan, he needs to do Adv Nitrox and Deco Procedures (usually combined as one course), which is considerable classroom plus at least 6 dives. He can go directly to trimix from there, but he needs 100 logged open-water dives first, and a good number of those ought to be deco dives, preferably with doubles and a deco cylinder, lift-bag and reel. Trimix is some more classroom, plus at least four dives. Basic skills, like buoyancy, need to be very good, and automatic. Many folks are not even teaching Extended Range anymore, because going that deep on air is no longer considered a best practice.

He can do all the training and rent all the specialized equipment from Walt Stark at RecTek. Walt actually has a very good price on the whole sequence: AdvNtrx, Deco, Trimix. I doubt you can do all this in one week unless you arrive with your 100 logged dives, are quite competent, and are used to doubles. Even then, I'm not sure. Walt would be the guy to ask. In any case, I'd recommend one trip to do AdvNtrx/Deco, go home and get some solid experience, then come back and do Trimix.

Thanks Mel. I know he has a long way to go but wrecks are his fascination.

Bob's last sentence may have been meant to read: 'It is truly one of the least dive(d) sites on the reef(;) (requiring a) permit (to dive a site) will do that.'

They may have done the dive the old fashioned way, on air. That was done for years, safely, before mixed gas and rebreathers were available. You do need to understand your 'narc-level' with depth, be comfortable at that depth, plan well and dive your plan. In the '80s most divemasters/instructors on Bonaire did that dive fairly often, safely.

Been there, done that, still here.

Glen, thank you for your speculation. Would have been more interested in hearing from the horse's mouth.

Also, what I said was deep air is no longer a "best practice." Just like no BCD, no alternate, and no SPG are no longer best practices. Would you go back?

Any idea what the Trimix is going to cost Mel? Just curious. I'm doing the sequence exactly as you described except, since my original Nitrox training was so bad, I did Advanced Nitrox as a stand alone class. Plan on doing Decompression Procedures in April and then Trimix when I feel like I'm good to go in the doubles, gas switching etc. As for Extended Range, read an opinion on that once from John C. I believe of Shadow Divers fame that, while not advocating dives on Air to 180', John felt it was instructional to expirience just how narced you can get at 180'. Based on that theory, he felt that TDI Extended Range instruction does have value.

Marcus, it worked for me! An air dive to 185 convinced me never to do it again!

The helium cost varies depending on where you are. In North Florida (cave country), it's about $0.60 per cubic foot. Here in Virginia it's about $0.90 per cubic foot. On Bonaire I think it is closer to $2 per cubic foot!

I didn't dispute you, Mel.

Air at 200' may no longer be 'best practise' but it is still a viable option not prohibited by law, rule, physiology or equipment limitations. Trimix, or heliox at 200', is another option. Safer gases perhaps but also using more complex equipment and protocols that add their own complications and risks, and more steps away from KISS. Diver's choice for the purpose at hand.

Going back isn't the question. The old gear worked, the present is better.

Re 'deep air' and narc'ing. Each diver should understand his own 'narcability' because that varies widely among humans; it seems to track a person's susceptibility to alcohol intoxication. One club member always became very happy at about 60'so he stayed shallow; some U S Navy divers were ok at 265' on the SQUALUS dives while others had to be brought up from much less. The recreational diver' limit of 130' can narc many people. Best to try your capability with a buddy of known depth ability.

When I dove the windjammer, I didn't feel strong effects of nitrogen til I hit the crows nest at 195', then I felt like Darth Vader... all I could here was my breathing and my brain asking what would you do right now if something happened.... it was time to ascend.... heh

Glen, that is truly the point "each diver should understand his own "narcability" because that varies widely"

To which I would add: it varies widely depending on the diver's state of mind (relaxed vs stressed), the dive conditions (warm and light vs cold and dark) the diver's fitness levels, comfort in the water, and previous experiences. A diver in cold dark water here can have a great dive or a narced dive..same diver, same dive, different day.

And, Kevin, sometimes the difference of 20 feet can be bigger than you think.

At 60 ft, an extra 20 is no big deal.

At 150 feet, believe me, that wreck at 170 can seem like in another universe.

We used to drive cars without a colapsable steering colume or seatbelts. I guess it was a simpler car. Just like deep air everything is fine till the accident.

When deep diving or technical diving, you should be giving yourself as many tools as possible to complete a dive, not removing them. Deep air removes the most important tool you have, a clear and focused brain.

If your looking for a quicker way to get to a wreck or want to save money by not using helium, then do your family a favour and stay in the recreational range. I wouldn't consider sub 150 foot dives till you have at least 300-400 dives

Can

Cameron and Fiona, you both make so many excellent points. My wife, Kathi, has done the Jammer 14 times on 80's. I have never done the Jammer, nor would I ever do it in the future. Kathi is 108 pounds, and is probably the best diver that I know on air. I am not happy about her doing it, but I also fully trust the guy she does it with on Bonaire. She still has about 16 minutes bottom time, and comes up with about 700 PSI doing deco stops on the reef. That is why I have termed her Aquawoman. I have often wondered if she ever got narced down there, and she has told me no. She is always pretty high anyway, so I don't know if she knows or not. They do bring three pony bottles with them, and the guy only had to go to it once while diving with her.

FYI,

This wreck is not a "Windjammer", it's a clipper, and it's called the Mairi Bhan.
Captain Don just thought "Windjammer" sounded better at the time, I guess...

Be safe,

Benji

The Hillma Hooker, is not the Hillma hooker either. If you want to know the real name of the Hooker you have to dive down and check out her name on the port bow!!!

Ron,

there you go!

:-)

Benji

To that end.... my name is Bill, but my father used to call me Bob.... I am so scarred by that... :-}

BILLYBOB, don't be scarred... ;-)

Actually she is a Barque or Bark. Which is one of the ships in the WindJammer category.

Clippers were built before 1860 and made of wood or composite and usually full rigged/square rigged. Clippers were less than 1000 tons.

WindJammers were built from 1870 to 1890 with Steel or Iron hulls more than 1000 tons and usually Barque-Bark rigged. The Mairi Bhan is 1315 tons. Built in 1874 & Barque-Bark Rigged & Iron hulled.

Clippers were built to carry light high value cargo very fast ( like tea ). WindJammers were built to carry cargo. Which is what the Mairi Bahn did, people in the beginning then coal for the Steam ships then as a tramp cargo hauler picking up whatever cargo she could and sailing to the next Port then trying to pick up another to go to the next port. Which is what she was doing when she ran a ground in Bonaire and sank.

Don was right She is a WindJammer.

Thanks for the info Walt, great stuff as usual. Hope to see her some day with you!?!

Patrick

Walt,

before this goes too far off course: I remember her being referred to as a clipper in the NZ newspaper article telling of her arrival in Port Chalmers (Otago Witness, 1st August 1874).
There it says "she combines the characteristics of a clipper with those of a profitable cargo carrier."

And this I found from "White Wings Vol. II":

"The Mairi Bhan.

One of the handsomest ships sent out to New Zealand by the Patrick Henderson Company was the Mairi Bhan, an iron clipper of 1315 tons, built by Barclay and Curle, of Glasgow, for Captain P.J. McIntyre, of London. She was a well-appointed, full-rigged ship, with the usual double topsail yards and unusual double top-gallant yards at the fore and main, and carried an immense spread of canvas."

If you're looking at the build material and the purpose the ship was likely used for in the end, you're obviously right, and I stand corrected.
But: We know very little about her travels and cargo over the years. And then again, her contemporaries call her a clipper and she was "full-rigged", so I'm not so sure anymore.

My gut feeling is that they built an older model (clipper style) with the new material (iron), like a fusion, best-of-both-worlds kind of design.

Regardless, it's a very cool dive, and my earlier post was more to highlight the fact that a ship like this deserves to be called by her real name, not some disrespectful nickname.

And the best and safest way to do this dive has been decided a long time ago.

Best,

Benji

Newspaper accounts are not always accurate. Here is one from Curacao Dec. 13, 1912 & Dec. 14, 1912









Here is drawing made in New Zealand after her first voyage, they’re from an Australian museum clearly showing she in not Full Rigged-Square Rigged but clearly Barque-Bark rigged.



Clippers were designed to run down wind fast, Windjammers being Barque-bark rigged could also run up wind fast, hence the name Windjammer.


Also bear in mid there is no one-way to do anything

I like the fact that the ship and it's cargo were sold after it went down...

Walt,

as I said, I stand corrected... :-)

The drawing, which I knew of, shows the rigging indeed better than the photo from Port Chalmers.
Good research, well done. So I guess she's a Windjammer after all.
I like "Mairi Bhan" better regardless.

Thanks Walt.

For the rest of the discussion:

If I can choose between either a donkey (cheap, been used extensively in the old days by the old guard, doesn't need a drivers license but can get you thrown into the cactus) or my Toyota Pickup for shopping at Warehouse, my choice is pretty clear.

Be safe,

Benji

Good analogy. The Toy, being modern, powerful and more complex, can easily throw you further into the cactus, harder, with far less provocation and just a bit of inattentiion, just like mixed gas/rebreathers. The donkey is more user friendly and gets the job done. (Better for the environment, too! :–) ) As you say, your choice.

Just enough to do the job well is always best :–)

I keep being surprised by how many people put down past things with which they have no experience. Shouldn't be by now but am.

One thing we all agree on is it is a great wreck and we are lucky to have her here.

Sorry I could not find my copy of her original plans.

Not sure she & her cargo were sold but Lloyds of London was going to pay off on the Insurance so she could not be salvaged. Maybe they were trying to sell her as she sat on top of the reef for a while before sinking.

I also have copies of the original hand written telegraph conversations between the Lt. Governors of Bonaire & Curacao about whether or not she could be salvaged. Courtesy of Bob Killorin's research in the government archive in Curacao.

No experience?

Come on dude...

Translation:

The ship had an asphalt cargo.
Asphalt was not in containers and that’s why the ship capsized.
Ship and cargo were sold at a very low price

There is no rational way to explain a deep air dive on a single to those depths. It's unsafe... Period

If you like to do cowboy dives then that's fine but don't try to say it's simpler or easier. Deep air was dived when people didn't know any better, now that we have information and equipment to do these dives properly, there's no excuse.

Cam

Walt,

let's get a beer together one day (should be easy enough...), but I found this link:

http://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/edwardes/07/PRG1373_7_26.htm

which clearly shows the square rigging on the aft mast. Your drawing does not show any of this, but
maybe they changed the rigging one way or the other.
On the hi-res version of the Port Chalmers photo I sent you it also shows a bunch of square sails above the gaff-rigged sail on the aft mast.

At this link:

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/mma/AtoZ/rigs.html

there is a nice summary of sail plans for these things.

Here is a painting of the "Flying Cloud", one of the most classic clippers of all time, bearing a striking resemblance to the Mairi Bhan.

http://www.maritimeheritage.org/ships.htm

And finally a Wikipedia quote:

"The most common windjammer rig was the four-masted barque, which was the ultimate result of science of aerodynamics and thousands of years of seamanship. The barque rig can outperform the schooner rig, can sail upwind better than full-riggers, and is easier to handle than full square rig. The usual cargo capacity was 2,000 to 5,000 tonnes."

Since the three-masted Mairi Bhan had only 1350 tons, she was quite small compared to the typical size of a classic cargo-carrying windjammer.

And for the purpose of the ship (transporting families of emigrants) a very fast speed was actually a good idea, since small children are considered just as perishable as tea or silk when it comes to sailing half way around the world...
On the maiden voyage to New Zealand, only four children died during the passage.

In the end, as Walt said, we all agree it's an awesome dive. Let's put it to rest.

Benji

I have not followed this entire thread, but Walt's picture of the ship shows that it is rigged exactly like the USCG Barque Eagle:

http://news.webshots.com/photo/1166000494015076657jiUQEE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCGC_Eagle_(WIX-327)

Sue,

this is correct. However both photos of the Mairi Bhan that I have been able to find show several square rigged sails above a smaller gaff-rigged sail on the aft mast.
More typical for a clipper than a windjammer.

Benji

wow...I have to admit I didn't even pay attention to this thread until this morning. Number one, thank you all for keeping the conversation civil. A first in a long time for BT.

In addition to that, VERY interesting and informative. We all love the sea, and I find ship wrecks interesting as well. I doubt however, that I will ever see the Windjammer where she lies, but by the pics posted, she's a beauty, I can imagine.

I think everyone agrees, it's a great dive. But now my curiosity has been piqued as well.

Another clue, "She was a well-appointed, full-rigged ship, with the usual double topsail yards and unusual double top-gallant yards at the fore and main, and carried an immense spread of canvas. " from here.

The link goes to an interesting article. Thanks

Quick Story - My wife and I were on Antigua staying at a hotel outside of town. We hiked up a steep hill to an old British fort close to the hotel one morning as we had been told the view of the bay and ocean was amazing. At the top we saw another couple siting of the fort wall, So I said hello as walked on by. A few minutes later the man says over to us "here she comes..." "Here who?" I replied back. Unbelievable as it may sound, the USCG Eagle in full sail comes up the bay and right past us. Turns out the couple had a son on the ship, which was leaving from a goodwill port stop. One of the most amazing sights I have ever seen. Some days you are just lucky!

Patrick

Hey Walt , if you have any , could you post a few shots of this wreck for us shallow divers . thanks

And Pat - any pics of the USCG EAgle leaving port in Antigua?

Folks,

this is not meant to advertise anything, but check here:

http://www.caribbeangastraining.com/english/photo%20&%20video.htm

Regards,

Benji

Benji:

Thanks for the link. Seems to show her lying almost upside down ??? Large keel sticking up ??

Dan,

Walt likely has more photos from before she collapsed, he was the one that dove her first right after it happened. Before, she was positioned almost exactly like the Hilma Hooker, very awesome, you could swim in and out of the hull very easily.
The bow is somewhat flattened on it's side, with the bowsprit lying on the bottom, in the shore diving section there is a video showing that part.
The keel is indeed sticking up like an airplane tail.

Best,

Benji

Thanks.

Pat, what are the odds?

I'm a little cornfused. When did the Mairi Bhan sink? Benji, you say Walt "he was the one that dove her first right after it happened."

And above it says she was built in 1874. And the news article Walt posted is dated 1942. I know Walt isn't THAT old (sorry Walt...lol)

FANTASTIC videos on that sight. Many thanks.

Dan, I actually took about 20, but with 35mm film, so I will ask Susan to scan one or two and post. Will be cool to see the pic's from that vacation as it was several years ago.

Tink, a million to one, we did not even know she was in port, let alone leaving that morning as the hotel we stayed at was far outside of the downtown port area. Just fantastic fun luck!

This thread brought it all back, nice...

Today I did dive # 515 on the Jammer. Cold 75 F 23.9 C on the bottom. Yes I have done 515 dives their in the last 20 years. I have dove it many different ways over the years. Air, Trimix, single 80's, doubles, Rebreathers - semi-closed & fully closed.

I will down size some pictures and post them over the next few days as I am REALLY busy at my real job right now.

I have lots of nice video but need to figure out a way to digitize and put on my web site in my "free" time.

I would like to find time to enjoy a nice sunset over a beer with you Benji or anyone else down here and talk about the Jammer.

Walt, cool...wow....515 dives on the Jammer...So you ARE that old ;-)

I only got to dive this beauty once before they closed it down, just enough to know it's there and I'm not...sigh.

It's also a shame we can't dive this reef, from shore, at least. I think it's it's a good one.

I was with Walt on his dive this morning....my dive #3 on her. Wonderful! Wish I could do it more often.

Hmmm, just 512 to go to catch up with Walt. I better get started....

I went to the Coast Guard Academy for 2 years, so I had the pleasure of spending 7 weeks of my life on the Eagle, including a 6 week cruise of the Caribbean when I as 18. (If I had stuck around a few more months, I would have spent another 4-5 weeks training new cadets).

I have an entire album of photos from that summer. Given my age they aren't digital! If I ever find free time, I hope to scan them onto my computer.

One of my former classmate is the current Captain and she's on her way back to New London CT from the Curtis Bay MD yards according to his facebook posts.

Sue, how cool, please post some pictures. Ok, here are the two I could find from the trip, more in the void somewhere along with my mind.





Just a fantastic moment I spent with Susan that I will never forget.

I saw mention of Advance deco etc but no mention of the natural progression. If the diver is already in PADI then it is DSAT Tec Deep and then DSAT Tec Trimix, us DSAT instructors need to eat too. Another 2 cents, do the Jammer on Trimix, gas for the dive was around $100 or so. Hit 191 feet for the crowsnest then Walt guided me in. Be back inside her in November, God willing.

I am glad I found this site about the wreck of the Windjammer formerly known as "Mairi Bhan". This was the sailing ship that brought my grandfather (when he was 10 years old) and his family to Australia in 1882. So while you are diving at this wreck take a moment to think of the men, women and children who trusted their lives to this ship way back in the 1880s. I'm glad people still have the pleasure of exploring this ship, just as my grandfather did so long ago.

Hi Missie Spencer,

What an amazing story.
I'm glad you shared it with us.

Welcome Missie, Would you please create a new topic in the current Diving section.. I am sure your story will attract some attention..
Unfortunately these threads in archives are supposed to be closed.{my bad} If you need help opening a new topic, I would be glad to help you. Please email me at Freddie@bonairetalk.com for assistance. and thank you very much for posting