BonaireTalk Discussion Group
Diving Bonaire: Dangerous Entry / Exit - Can Something Be Done?
Bonaire Talk: Diving Bonaire: Archives: Archives 2008-2009: Archives - 2008-01-01 to 2008-02-29: Dangerous Entry / Exit - Can Something Be Done?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #13) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:27 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, All.

I just returned from my fourth dive trip to Bonaire. In total, I've done 46 dives there... which is, admittedly, a modest count - but I feel it's given me enough experience to be able to ask the following question...

Is there anything that can be done to make shore diving entries and exits more safe???

It is quite common for a diver to return home with cuts/scrapes due to an injury incurred while entering or exiting a dive. Maybe these little injuries could be considered a badge of honor by some.

But, how many of us have had close calls that could have had serious consequences?

I don't even think I need to give examples of some of the more hazardous sites. If you shore dive, you know what I'm talking about.

Can steps be taken to help create a safer entry/exit point at shore diving sites? Is this something that the Bonaire government would need to address?

It seems to me that creating a fairly narrow, safe channel at a shore site wouldn't be terribly costly or invasive to the environment.

If it's a matter of cost, I'd be happy to contribute and I'm sure many of us would. Bonaire is my favorite place in the world and I'd be glad to do my part to help. Maybe you feel the same way?

After all, falling down the concrete steps (with no handrail) at Bachelor's Beach with 50 pounds of scuba gear on your back would pretty much ruin your day!

Thanks,
Cliff


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2143) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:36 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Take a boat.

Leave nature alone. The corals already have to contend with enough from man.

If falling down at Bachelor's Beach with 50lbs of scuba gear on your back is an issue - don't wear it on your back, carry it down (you can even use the tank as a "cane"), get in the water, and suit up there.

Why do people always want to make things more convenient FOR THEM???

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denise K (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1753) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:51 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

While many entries are difficult, there are also many that are not so difficult. I would prefer to not change nature myself.

Boats are available as noted, and there are careful ways to enter where more difficult. I have had to walk my tank down for Bachelors Beach when my knee was hurting.

Cliff, I see you are a professional photographer. Have you posted pics from Bonaire?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #14) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Ah... the flaming begins less than 10 minutes after I asked the question.

For the record: I'm not talking about CONVENIENCE for me. I'm talking about SAFETY. Your safety. My safety. Our children's safety.

I agree that damage to the coral is a serious issue - I see it frequently by careless divers - but I'm talking about channels through rocks and dead coral at the shoreline.

Taking a boat is certainly a safe way to enter/exit the water. But it's not the answer to the question of whether anything can be done to make certain shore diving sites more safe.

The suggestion of carrying gear and gearing up in the water is a good one. I think that could help at several sites.

Thanks,
Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #15) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:00 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, Denise.

My only Bonaire pictures are found here on a Trip Report I did last year...

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/1022/312950.html?1173980281

Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2144) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Bonaire is not the USA, where everything has been boiled down to a sickening bland puddle of pablum in the interest of "keeping everyone safe".

And I'm glad of it - here in the USA we have a generation of kids who've been told they're all special, they're all number one: even though being number two or number three can foster healthy competition which is GOOD for children. Without it, they don't strive to be BETTER. We have kids who've been protected from harm to the point that they don't even realize harm exists in the real world.

As far as saftety goes: it's called personal responsibility. You're taught that when you learn to dive: if the dive looks too challenging, abort. If you fear for your safety, move on to another site.

My husband and I have hip replacements. We can dive sites on Bonaire; there are others we skip. We don't expect Bonaire to change to accomodate our physical issues.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark E. Anderson (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:14 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

My wife has slipped on some algae covered concrete and really banged her leg up. But she realized it was her own fault for not being more careful. I have also had friends fall down from the surf but they realize it comes with the turf. I've slipped and fell on wet marble and tile usually after a few Balashi's. Sometimes you just have to be RESPONSIBLE for yourself.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #175) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:20 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff,
If you have safety concerns with a particular dive site and its condition at the particular time you are considering it, do not dive it.

From a beginner to a highly athletic professional there are dive sites on Bonaire that are fun. There are also varying conditions where some of them might be considered suicidal at some times.

Bonaire is not a golf course. There is no standard that says all holes are equal in safety on all days for all people.

Finally, Bonaire is a marine park. This means that in all cases the conservation of the natural resource does take precedence over safety. Your accessiion is to dive elsewhere within the park. On almost every day of the year, you have options. I realize that there are parks that drift from this ideal, Bonaire has to a degree I personally don't like it but that is the idea.

Your concept is absolutely bizarre to those of us who care about the natural resources and take responsibility for where we dive and for ourselves.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #16) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:52 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't really have a "concept" - just a simple question... Is there anything that can be done to make some shore dive sites safer for entry/exit?

Why am I being attacked for asking this? It feels like I'm being accused of not caring about the natural resources of Bonaire. Or that I'm some kind of slacker who expects someone else to take responsibility for my safety?

Someone built those steps down to the water at the 1,000 steps dive site. Someone put that nice ladder in the water at Oil Slick. There's a dock at Karpata. Should we remove these things? No, of course not. They make it possible/easier to see the natural beauty that is Bonaire.

Isn't there some middle ground here, friends?


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince DePietro (Bellevue Condos ) (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1304) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 12:52 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff..Welcome, but really I don't think you're going to find too many sympathizers in your corner on this one. The Marine Park rules are extremely stringent now when it comes to changing the natural contours of anything in or near the water.

There are many EZ places to shore dive. Get to know them & avoid those which are beyond your abilities.
Believe me, we do it all the time & very carefully study potential entrances & exits before we put on a piece of equipment.

**Susan** I whole heartily agree with the content and sentiment of your posting above. Refreshing to read. IMHO many of the boys particularly have become emasculated by this philosophy which permeates the U.S. culture. There are winners & losers in life. Sports can be a great tool in teaching these lessons. As a corollary; don't expect life to be fair, because frankly it isn't.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3583) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff

No one has so far mentioned the book Shore Diving Made Easy - do you have a copy? I also appreciate that getting in and out with camera rigs adds to the issues. We get someone in and kitted up and then wade out with the cameras and finally return for the dive gear.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3279) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff, why not ask the Marine Park instead of these hosers and report back to us?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denise K (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1754) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

We did find Shore Diving Made Easy very helpful in finding the easiest way to enter many sites. It also helped us to rule out a few sites too. Thanks for bringing that up Brian.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Denise K (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1755) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 1:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff, nice pictures :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Grunt, with 69 days to go (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #573) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 3:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, there are things that can be done, but YOU have to do them. Become stronger so as to be able to handle the weight that comes with scuba gear. Take advanced scuba courses to become a better diver. When you look at a shore entry site, check it out by snorkeling it first. This will give you an accurate idea of what the underwater challenges are. It you have a problem entering and exiting with no scuba gear on, that site is probably not for you. This is meant in a positive way. More knowledge will give you more power.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 4:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, Denise.

Grunt, I understand your points, and they are well-taken.

But, it seems to me that no matter how strong one is or how much advanced training one has, even a very carefully placed foot CAN slip as one's weight is transferred. This could result in a cracked rib or broken wrist, for example. I know that I've had some close calls and surely I'm not the only one.

Trying to do a shore dive while minimizing the risk is all I'm asking about. Does it make any sense to install a hand rail here or there? To clear out a narrow channel here or there? Does asking about this automatically make one naive, uncaring, unskilled, weak, or inferior in some way?

Doing a shore dive at one of the sandy entry dive sites like Front Porch or Ole Blue is not very risky. And there are several of these. So, one could limit themselves to only doing sandy entries and boat dives and minimize the risk of injury upon entry/exit.

However, I also enjoy the underwater rewards of diving other, non-sandy sites... like Hilma Hooker, for example. If there's an easy entry to Hilma Hooker from shore, somebody please tell me! I came out okay but my dive buddy came out with a bloody knee when we dove that site.

Even a site like "Cliff" can be tricky. I have snorkeled and dove "Cliff" many times - I've even done a night dive there - but the entry can be tricky. Once, I ended up on my back there as waves pounded me. (And I wouldn't even classify Cliff as a hazardous site!)

No matter how macho you are, all it takes is stepping on a loose rock and you might go down.

I have had the good fortune to go to Bonaire and explore a world of beauty that is practically indescribable. And I've been lucky enough to do 40+ shore dives there without significant injury.

All that was luck. Sense is another thing. But, if I had any sense at all, I wouldn't have brought up this topic! :-)

Thanks,
Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #176) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 5:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff, if you think this is being attacked, you should read more of the posts on this and on other boards.

The steps and ladders you mention were built prior to the creation of the marine park and for purposes other than diving. Although they add to those sites, their original purpose was not related to diving.

It's interesting because one of those "safer" sites was the recent scene of two divers tragically dying. The causes had nothing to do with entry/exit.

It's up to you to be safe and not the marine park or the government of bonaire. I think if you get more experience with ocean shore diving, you will realize better how silly you are being. Shore diving in Bonaire is actually among the safest because ocean conditions are more predictable than in many other places. For example: There are dive sites I have done in the pacific where conditions are calm on entry and, on exit an hour later, are basically surfing with the added wrinkle of navigating to a beach and not jagged lava with a cross current. Mess up and its not scrapes but skin grafts.

I see that you stayed at the Habitat, look at their "Armstrong Opinion" which is also on the release.

The first principle of diver safety is taking responsibility for the dive. If you get banged up at a site or are worried that you might, don't go there. In my experience as an instructor, creating an illusion of safety is actually unsafe as demonstrated at one of the sites you say is an example of safety.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2145) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 5:26 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The fact is, nature does not acquiesce to our desires. Perhaps clearing a path is reasonable in a lake or a quarry, but anyone who's spent any time at the seashore knows that anything loose is going to roll right into that vacated area with the next good wave. Your ideas really have no basis in reality, when it comes to that.

I said before, I have hip replacements. I also own and ride horses, and I know quite well the potential for serious injury in doing so - even before the hips were replaced, there were risks.

I've had many falls, some more serious than others - but I accept them as possible consequences of my choosing to ride.

For instance, I do not blame the bird flying by which startled the horse, or expect all birds to be shot down in the area because of the potential for my idiot horse to display his lack of sense. If the wind is up and my horse thinks there are boogiemen in the bushes, I may (or may not) choose to not ride - I don't expect the wind to stop blowing because it inconveniences me.

There are so many dive sites - and if you don't mind a bit of a surface swim, there are other ways to get to some of them that may not be as perilous. If instead, you opt for the peril - it's your choice. If you get banged up, it's a consequence of your own actions.

Nobody should need to protect you from yourself.


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Gould (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1398) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 6:24 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff, It is very simple! The answer to your question is NO!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark E. Anderson (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 6:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

We are very lucky it is as easy as it is.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Liz .... back to Bon 5/10 (BonaireTalker - Post #32) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 6:45 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Good grief, Susan....we all get what you are saying. There really is no need to keep beating Cliff up for his suggestion. In fact, I'm not sure he actually asked anyone else to assume responsibility for his safety. He just brought up a suggestion he thought was a good idea.

It seems people on this board could be a bit more tempered in their responses, so as to make ALL feel welcomed. Its a big world, and we don't all agree on everything, but it sure is nice when opposing viewpoints are put forth in a "hey, let's have a dialogue about our differences" way, rather than a "hey, your idea sucks and I am compelled to tell you explicitly how much I think your idea sucks" way. It keeps the focus on the viewpoints, rather than the delivery or the personality of the poster.

But, hey, thanks for letting us all know (twice) about your hip replacements. That really adds credence to your viewpoint and puts your shore diving expertise in perspective for me.



(Message edited by lizard0924 on February 18, 2008)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #139) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

You people should be ashamed of yourselves!

Cliff, I'm sorry that you've run into the "holier than thou" crowd. It appears that it's easier to be rude and short sighted, and simply discard things out-of-hand than it is to actually think them through and consider whether it would actually benefit the marine park or not.

Making one single entry/exit point at each site that extended out just deep enough for a diver to put their fins on and swim away would relieve pressure on adjacent corals from divers stomping all over them. This truly would be beneficial to the environment by limiting the damage caused by entries/exits to small defined traffic corridors. There would be no reason for a diver to touch bottom outside these designated areas.

I don't see a need to install cement structures. I think simply smoothing a path in the natural iron shore and strategically placing a few large rocks, that won't easily be moved by the waves, would be sufficient. If its going to cost a little extra to maintain them then fine, I'll put my money where my mouth is and cough up an extra $5 or $10 for my park tag. It'll be worth it to preserve the shoreline.

The downside is that it takes away the freedom of being able to walk into the water anywhere anyone wants. However, if people are genuine about wanting to minimize our impact on the ecosystem then they should have no problem making the sacrifice.

As for entry/exit in rough areas I recommend a method that my wife and I worked out on our first trip to the island. You and your buddy stand side-by-side facing opposite directions. If your buddy is on your right then hold their right BCD shoulder strap with your right hand and they hold your right BCD strap with their right hand. If they're on the left then just switch it around. You want to take the oncoming waves sideways so you have the most stability. The way this works is that one person moves while the other stays still and acts as a brace for them. The leader feels out the path, finds a stable spot, moves forward onto that spot and then stops and acts as the brace for their buddy to move forward. Keep repeating this until you reach where you want to be. This may sound cumbersome but it works.

(Message edited by jim peters on February 18, 2008)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob...no april showers) (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2537) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

lots of discussion about the great shore diving in bonaire...not to much about falling down though;)

whether it is coral rubble, or "iron shore", "slimy" ladder/steps, wave action/surge, whatever -it's pretty easy to fall down;)

just slow down some and take some extra care - on the entry/exits, on tile floors, where ever;)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Grunt, with 65 days to go (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #575) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 7:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I am not ashamed of my original response, and think my suggestions were and are valid. As the old saying goes "You pay your dollar and takes your chances".I get the occasional scrape while shore diving and take it a potential but acceptable risk. I also carry a pint bottle of white Heinz vinegar in the truck to douse said scrape immediately upon exit. One really bad infection will make the sting seem an OK alternative :-) Not to make light of the original question :-) but Bonaire is not Disneyland, nor do people want it to be. They are two different vacation destinations and should remain that way.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #177) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 8:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

"holier than thou crowd" ... that's pretty amazing as an accusation when people get so "holier than thou", they accuse others of being "holier than though" with someone who doesn't share their idea of "holy". I just like ridiculing ideas I think are incredibly silly, for no other reason than I like it.

I can think of almost no incidents in ten years of diving on Bonaire where I saw someone scraped up and actually thought about it for more than 10 seconds. I'm sure that it happens but, until today, I don't think I would have even thought of it if asked about common mishaps on the island.

Indigestion, mosquito bites, sun burn would have topped my list.

I suppose that "the government" should put pepto-bismol, bug repellant, sun screen in special boxes at every dive site. You know, "In case of excessive fun, break glass".

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #996) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 9:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

My concern is that, along with cruise ships, this is the kind of thing that is threatening to turn Bonaire into a glorified water park instead of a haven for independent shore divers who welcome the adventure of getting in and out of dive sites in their natural state; for me, its part of the feeling of accomplishment I get when I successfully complete a shore dive from start to finish without being herded around by a Dive Master. My opinion: leave the shore dive sites in their natural state, take a boat and/or stick to the resort dives.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2146) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 9:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Liz,
I'm sorry you take offense at my mention (twice, the horror!) of my hip replacements.

It's true I didn't come on here asking people to feel sorry for me when I was going in for surgery, or looking for BT hugs or prayers, or any of that stuff - it makes me uncomfortable. There are a few people here who were aware of my having them done when it was happening - they are my friends.

The point is, I am able despite them to deal with many (though not all) shore dives on Bonaire - and I don't feel that I'm deprived because I can't do EVERY shore dive there is to dive. I am in very good shape - maybe even better than yourself - I work out 4 days a week and ride two horses the other 3 - and work a full time job. I'm not looking for sympathy because of them, just making a point that people who have physical issues have been shore diving on Bonaire for years, without feeling the need to complain about the conditions.

Marcus, I agree with you.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Gassert (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #508) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 9:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

And the gods and goddesses have spoken, Cliff. So there....

I too am sorry that you have been attacked. I've held off till now, but I can tell you that if you are in anyway adverse to their way of thinking, you will be attacked.

There are much better ways to disagree with someone and that doesn't exist with some on this board. I even agree with the reasoning of the responses, but totally disagree on how they were self righteously presented.

I've been on this board for a long time and have seen it evolve into something that most don't like, but are afraid to speak out in fear of being attacked.

I'm used to it. I'm the ending of most threads. I speak and the thread ends...hahaha.

Hope this one does too. :-)

Sorry folks...just my humble opinion. I've been on Cliff's end and didn't and don't like it.

Liz and Jim - thank you for being adult and brave enough to speak out. It's your kind of response that used to be on this board and I appreciated how you expressed yourselves.

Oh, yeah. One more thing...see how the cruise ships got slipped in? Cute. :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kobi in Virginia***Trip in May (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4690) on Monday, February 18, 2008 - 10:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff,
Thanks for the question and don't ever feel like you can't come here with questions even if it gets us all thinking or not thinking the same way!
I too, after 17 trips to Bonaire, have thought the VERY same thing!!!
I have busted my a** more than twice on BON; some hurt more than others BUT nothing that turned tragic.
I'm fat and out of shape but damit I get out there and dive; thank you very much Susan :-)
I have been beaten and banged up worse that a ho who's holding back $ on her pimp LOL! Karpata is a place where I have left a few pieces of flesh as well as a lot of paint off my tank!

This is just me thinking out loud, with my fire extinguisher, but how cool would it be to have a way to get to the site via one route vs. seeing the yellow marker and everyone entering at 50 different points up and down that section of reef? Funneling divers to one particular section? Would that not give the other parts of the reef a rest? You can't deny that fact.

I can't see it ever happening BUT it would surely protect more of the reef than we are now.
That's just my .02 on the subject.

Liz, LAMO....we'll do dinner at Buddy's in May :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #428) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:59 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

It's simple: Bonaire's waters are a Marine Park, not a Tourist Park - it's not there for our convenience, but to protect the marine life. So we shouldn't mess with it, there are enough problems already. There are enough sites with easy entry. When there's one I don't think is safe, I don't go there.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MadMan (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #168) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff
I understand your concern and question.
In my humble opinion even if hand rails would be placed, pathways made, rocks placed etc. it would not last. Rocks, concrete will be slippery within a few days. Hand rails etc made of wood or metal won't last more than a couple of weeks (the sea will eat them up). And imagine if you had specified paths where to get in and out of the water the line's that would form to get in and out of the water. And even with rails etc. in place there would still be a risk of falling.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #997) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 7:53 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Barry: It breaks my heart to see that you were offended by my opinion.... I love the way you insult people and then put a smiley face at the end like you're really just this great human being taking on all the bad types all by yourself. Your so clever and brave!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Gassert (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #509) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 8:36 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I wasn't offended by your opinion Marcus. I actually agree with it - all of it. I didn't see it necessary to include the ships. That's all. :-)

A man asked some questions and he got lambasted. Not right. Not polite. Certainly not Bonairean.

I could call a person an 'idiot' or say that 'it wasn't such a good idea'. Which one would you prefer if you asked something, very innocently I might add, and got what Erik got? He didn't deserve that.

The smiley face? For those who have met me know that I laugh and smile a lot. I don't take to much to heart at my age (61 tomorrow). I just smile a lot. I have a lot to smile about. Life is good. :-):-):-) Try it. It keeps you young. :-):-):-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Gassert (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #510) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 8:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Opps. Sorry Cliff. I said Erik and meant you. :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #998) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 9:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

.... and you didn't lambast those of us who didn't agree with Cliff on this issue? Give me break there smiley, uh, I mean Barry.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3584) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:00 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The suggestion that having easy access through a channel would take pressure off the shallow areas of the reef from divers does have some merit. Although cutting a passage has been done in the past, this would still cause damage and cause sediment pollution and could be blocked by a storm.

Whilst I am not suggesting that this is done there is an argument that docks would solve some of these issues at sites with difficult access. However this would be expensive to install and repair if damaged from storms.

We will doing all 3 types of access for dives in less than 3 weeks time.

Just my two-penneth. I still think the Trebuchet is the fun way to dive. thanks to Gerald Huppertz for this possible PADI specialiaty card

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/27/340049.html

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2147) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:00 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have no idea why you took offense at me calling my horse an idiot - he's afraid of a llama (after being pastured nearby it without taking notice for over a year) :-)

As for Cliff's ideas, I said his ideas had no basis in reality - which since I was referring to the idea of clearing a path in the ocean and expecting it to stay clear, I stand by.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3585) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:06 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan

I hope you and Geoffrey are well. Hopefully we may see you in September if we can make it back to Bonaire for the Coral Spawning.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2148) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:10 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Brian! How's Sue? Did you hear whether you've won the photo contest yet?

I'm not sure when we're going back this year, but it may be September, so if the planets align we'll see you then!

(Message edited by susanf on February 19, 2008)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3586) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:25 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Susan

Sue is well and happy as we just got back from a weekend in London for her birthday. The new Pup is growing - maybe into a horse at the rate he is going. He was one of the smallest in his puppy class, now the largest and he not 5 months old yet.

We keep checking but the winners have not been announced yet. I would like to see Sue win as she puts a lot of effort into her pictures.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #429) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Another danger of making easier entry/exit points could be that less experienced divers/snorkelers would go where they normally wouldn't have gone before. This would cause more pressure on the reef with the added risk of people with less marine knowledge damaging the coral. I think there are enough easy entries as it is.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3587) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Alex, I don't agree that safety would be worse than now, my view is that safety would improve, depending on the access available. OK the Trebuchet entry might not be for those who are risk averse!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #430) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Brian, probably my bad English caused a confusion? I'm not talking about safety for divers/snorkelers here, I'm talking about danger to the reef by making things easier for people to get in and out of the water.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy P (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #741) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:09 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I am, let us just say, less nimble than a mountain goat.

I find the entries at Donkey Beach and Windsock to be very easy to navigate.

Oil Slick Leap has a great ladder for egress and a good giant stride platform, but frankly the parking area and walkway to that platform do require careful footing.

In my humble opinion that is simply the way Mother Nature is. It is why I go to Bonaire, to enjoy the ultimate in diving freedom. I simply pick and choose my sites with my own clumsiness, and non-gymnastic ability as the primary qualifier.

MY solution to the 'ultimate' entry safety concern is to dive the snot out of whichever house reef my oceanside resort sits upon. Handrails, steps, piers and concrete walkways galore!

My last two week stint at Den Laman had me doing over 45 dives right there on Bari (a Top Rated reef in the Caribbean), and just a few dives at other 'typical' shore diving sites. Same thing when I've stayed at Buddy or Divi. And one can always visit many of the shore based resorts and use their super-EZ entries to visit many different house reefs beyond just one's home-base resort.

Understanding the power of the ocean to re-arrange man-made things, and having a realistic notion of Bonaire's fiscal situation, I suspect that the shore sites are not likely to see any training quarry access facilities anytime soon.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3588) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:24 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Randy

We also tend to do 30% of our dives on the house reef (La Machaca) mix these in with boat dives to see (Froggies, SeaHorses and other things the DMs know were to find) and then hire a truck when we want to Shore dive and eat further away. I like a break away from driving as well when I am on holiday.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #139) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:35 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Susan is exactly right!

It's really pretty simple. Wear or carry your gear to the waters edge. Take it off, lay it down and inflate your BC. Use your BC and tank to steady yourself as you walk out to waist deep or so water. Then put it on. Same thing for the exit.

Jim does have a good point though. I'm going to have to think about that one for a while.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Gassert (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #513) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 1:47 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Marcus, if you re-read my posts, you'll see that I did agree with what was said. It was the tone at which it was stated that I disagreed with.

You were NOT even included in my comments except for the ship thing and I sure wouldn't call that a lambaste. But, you seem to have proven my point. I don't agree, so I get attacked by even someone I agreed with no less.

People ridiculed a person with only 13 posts concerned about safety! My God. Somebody had to say something.

Many of the posts were done in a mature and proper manner...especially the Trebuchet post. Ya gotta love it dontcha. :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #999) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 3:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Agree, disagree it doesn't matter Barry. The point is you took the same tone you have a problem with by referring to other posters as "Gods and Goddesses." This was clearly meant to be derogatory. The comment you made about the cruise ships was clearly meant to be derogatory and was clearly aimed at me. This is getting old. No doubt one thing is true, as you stated above, this thread will probably end with you cause unless someone else has something to say to you I am done as of now. Point made.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

As the person who started this topic, maybe it would be appropriate for me to try to put it to rest...

I appreciate all of the opinions expressed here. To the many people who expressed their opinions without putting me down for asking the question, many thanks!

And thanks to all of you who sent me private messages apologizing for the lack of civility being displayed on this thread. I appreciate that so many people took the trouble privately to make me feel welcome here.

Best wishes,
Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie {Moderator} (Moderator - Post #483) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 5:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Cliff for being patient to say the least.
Now boys and girls that is enough haggling over this topic. please refrain from posting with a negative attitude or I will be forced to close the thread..

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By BOOM! and then there was Tara (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #6191) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 7:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cum by ya, My Lord, cum by ya.....

Actually when you peel away all the silliness this was an interesting thread. Had a lot more potential though if it would stay on topic.

It makes sense that trying to carve out some path would only last a short while and docks take maintenance. We honestly didn't do as many shore dives as we would have liked because it was too easy and nice to just go off from our house dock and be at Something Special.

Ah well, at least you got a few people thinking.
Welcome to BT Cliff

Oh Lord Cum by Ya!!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By I shoulda been a fish! (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #206) on Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 10:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I just go and appreciate all that Bonaire has to offer, rugged shoreline and everything. I wouldnt change a thing. There are lots of dives that are easy entries, save the ones that arent to those that are willing to do it! I always come back with a trophy bruise or two and I love it!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lloyd Haskell (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #129) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:28 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I suggest the divers rule , dive within your limits , this rule starts as soon as your gear is on and you are approaching your entry . I found even the hardest entrys such as karpata , nukove , taylor made , were all easily done under decent conditions . Susan Porters book shore diving bonaire will help you more than putting walkways in the sea .She has all the entrys clearly laid out and they work ! After 20 years of diving vancouver island with a drysuit and enough lead to sink a small dinghy , bonaire was like a walk in the park . Know your limits and obey them .

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deborah Bennett (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #125) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 6:55 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

A 3' wide patch of concrete with a gentle slope would not harm any entrance, it should help save entrances as everyone would enter at the same spot, rather than trampling the whole shorefront. I'm amazed that there are so many folks that think they are not going to slip and have a nasty fall. Or that you won't fall if you're careful. I guess they just haven't lived long enough.

It is not a matter of "if" you will fall, it is "when" and "how badly?"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt III - www.RecTekScuba.com (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #374) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 7:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Do you have any IDEA how slippery concrete gets when covered with algae. Oh add a slope to that slippery concrete and we can sell tickets.

I warn those diving with me at the WindJammer that the boat ramp is more slippery than wet ice do not step on the algae covered nice gentle sloped concrete. Some still do it and instantly end up on their A$$. The rocks and iron shore are so much safer.


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3280) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 8:20 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Ignoring all the eco objections, who would have a financial incentive to improve the ease of shore diving entries?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2149) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:05 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Walt, great point - though I find it amazing that anyone would even have to make it. :-) I guess the fact that you DID need to make it, and that you warn people on the WindJammer dive and they nevertheless still go straight for the concrete, just goes to show that common sense isn't that common... :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mickey McCarthy (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #529) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 10:14 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Meanwhile I think it's safe to say that a little "smoothing" was done under the water when the ramp at Andrea I was built. And at Karpata & Nukove years ago.
Mick

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By diver dave (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:09 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I also returned from Bonaire with plenty of damaged knuckles. Most, if not all, due to my lack of experience at shore diving. Once I copied my dive bud's: stop in mid-chest deep water, get positive, de-fin while semi-floating, get negative and walk in, I had far less issues. We did pass on some spots due to wave action.

Here is another variation on ideas. I found the entry and exit difficult due to the uneven footing because of all the weight I was lugging. If not for the weight, it would have been far easier. So as we travel down the path of 'not likely', if we had a way to move the weight and not carry it, much of the issue would be resolved. Perhaps others have ideas for accomplishing that goal.

How about a clothes line or the river crossing approach? A post on shore and a post in 4-5 ft of water with pulleys and line. Drop the BC, tank and weights in a basket on the line at shore, wade out to the post, roll the basket to bring the items to you, don the gear and you are off. Repeating this can be done upon return.
This could be done at 1000 steps for getting the gear up/down the hill but a counter weight and rachet would be needed as the bucket would drop in about 2 seconds otherwise.

I am particularly interested in the Trebuchet idea and love the graphics provided for that specialty course. I would use the penguin approach on that one....not to be first or last in line. Perhaps Buddies or AB could offer those installed in the truck bed.

Or perhaps we could install a strong metal trash can in the truck bed with a sturdy hinged lid, properly angled. You fill the can about 1/4 full of water, drop in a 1/2 lb of dry ice, close the lid and sit on it. You may need straps for holding down for a bit to build more pressure. Once enough CO2 has vaporized, POP, off you go into the water. Getting back is another issue.

Sorry if I got off track a bit... engineering nerd types just go off sometimes.

"I have the world's largest collection of seashells. I keep it on all the beaches of the world... perhaps you've seen it."
Steven Wright


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Freeman (BonaireTalker - Post #26) on Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

When I read Cliff's question I immediately thought back to another poster who asked the same question a few months ago. He got blasted too. Personally, I wouldn't want ANYTHING to be done to Bonaires dive sites to make exit/entry easier. Use common sense, dive within your limits, and be careful. Be thankful that Bonaire is still the finest diving (in my humble opinion ) in the Caribbean and enjoy it while we can. The cruise ships will definately ruin it for all of us eventually.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik L. Enger (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 12:54 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

On my first dive on Bonaire at The Lake in 2004 when I was a relative newbie there was ironshore (I believe) and some decent wave action and I recall getting a couple of minor scrapes. By my third dive I had adjusted and got my fins straps ready, learned where to wade to before putting on my fins and got them on quickly. I had no problems whatsoever over the ensuing two weeks of 30+ dives. The same could be said for the rest of of the folks I was with.

If one is in reasonably good condition and possesses a modest sense of balance I personally think Bonaire's entries are fairly easy. You've just got to figure out what works for you. One of the girls I was with found the steps challenging with a tank on her back so I carried it down for her. One could certainly make two trips as well. While this wouldn't be anyone's preference it does ameliorate the safety concerns Cliff mentioned.

I honestly don't think putting in channels of that sort is warranted. You've just got to figure out what works for you and what doesn't and act accordingly

Just my .02

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #435) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Don, I remember a post a year or so ago from someone who wanted us all to take garden shears with us to Bonaire (complete with suggestions to which type was convenient) to cut the vegetation near sites, with the same reason: to make the dive sites more accessible. I seem to remember his idea originated from his complaint that his (rental) car got scratched at Oil Slick, when he wanted to park right next to the platform, instead of having to walk a few feet extra from the parking area...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Back in March (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3590) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:13 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Alex

I remember that thread, here is the link

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/30/309623.html

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fid Chinoy (BonaireTalker - Post #25) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 10:34 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

There is just something inherently wrong with going to a foreign country and then suggesting how they should do things. I am certainly not claiming to be innocent of doing that myself. We all do it, but that does not make it right.

It is similar to going to visit someone and deciding to rearrange all their furniture and paint their house to suit your ideas of how things should be.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #436) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 10:35 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the link, Brian, it was fun reading through that again.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #1000) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 3:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Agreed Alex. It was fun reading through that thread again. It reminded me that I still haven't dove Petrie's Pillar yet. Gotta get on that!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fiona Rattray (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #393) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:35 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Walt III makes a great point: any concrete pad or steps become covered in algae. Yes I remember the BOPEC access (pre diving restrictions there) and you could really slip quite easily on the boat ramp.

Having said that, I shore dive quite a lot in many locations and waves, surf, slipping, algae covered rocks, needing to be careful with one's entry style is not generic to Bonaire. Last weekend I went cold-water diving in Georgian Bay, (Lake Huron) and had to slog through knee deep snow, clamber over an ice dam at the shoreline and slide down this 4 ft high dam on my stomach feet first to reach the shallow water. Water 33F, air temp -8C. Yes steps would have been nice, but ain't gonna happen every place you go diving. :-) Yes, I had to walk uphill both ways to school, too :-)

Bonaire being a Marine Park and therefore a preserve has also been covered.

There have been a lot of great suggestions about how to minimize falling while getting into the water in Bonaire. The OP mentioned somewhere in one of his posts that he'd seen someone come out with a scraped and bloody knee...that's why I wear a full wetsuit.



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leigh (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have read Bonaire Talk faithfully for a long time. Although I have never been a poster, I have had many discussions with my husband (and others) regarding a variety of topics that appear on this board. We have been to Bonaire many times, and are now fortunate to be able to stay for over a month each year.

I would like to let Cliff know that I appreciate his concerns for safety and think that his original question was valid and, obviously, thought provoking. What concerns me is the beating he received for just putting forth a question. You can bet that many of the "did you see that post on Bonaire Talk?" discussions at our house are in regard to the tone of some of the responses that many posters receive on this Board. One that comes right to mind is the "Cactus Blue" thread that went on and on just a short time ago.

So, I feel certain there are others like me who would post more, ask more, and be more involved if some of the "Extraordinary" and "Supreme" Bonaire Talkers would ask themselves, "would I like to get this response?"

Speaking as an "New Bonaire Talker", but a long time "Bonaire Talk Reader" those who post mean spirited responses make the Board seem unwelcoming to others who might participate. The people who disagreed with Cliff had VERY valid points, but the way in which some stated their disagreement did not seem to me to be in the spirit of fostering a healthy exchange of ideas.

Sorry my first post was so lengthy, but this has been on my mind for a long time. It has been wonderful to gather the combined knowledge from the Bonaire Talkers, and I thank those of you who post in the spirit of increasing awareness of and appreciation for all the wonderful things Bonaire has to offer.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #153) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:49 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Good point Diane...!!

I really apologize Cliff!! Sometimes, we DO get carried away here, and I'm the worst of the bunch!! I need a little slap once in a while!! I hope you will continue to post. Great question........that we have all had to deal with!!

As you can see, there are responses all over the board. Not because we feel superior, but rather, we are passionate about Bonaire!!

Hang in there, and put up with our butts! Actually, I think you need to steer clear of Boat Chick, Jerry, Freddie, Kobi, and LRAZ. They're nothing but trouble!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #9682) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:07 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey thats not fair!!! I have been good on this thread :-):-):-):-):-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1001) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Your good on every thread Freddie. I've been bad on this thread. Although I stand by my position on the shore dive entry issue, I reckon I could have toned it down a little. My bad.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #9683) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Ahhhh Thanks Marcus I appreciate that.. and the polo ponies will eat tonight because of those words..:-):-):-):-):-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By BOOM! and then there was Tara (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #6208) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Great first post Leigh! BT is a wealth of information that sometimes gets trapped in petty arguments. We'll just call it passion :-)
I hope you post more often.

BTW- thanks for all of the thoughtful posts on this thread.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kobi in Virginia***Trip in May (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4718) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:24 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

No fair; below the belt is worth a slap :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kobi in Virginia***Trip in May (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4719) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:33 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Leigh,
Great post. I agree that we're all passionate about Bonaire; it's what drives some of us and keeps us coming back here and to the island.

The thing about type words...it's hard to really hear/feel the tone. Good conversation and ideas are always nice. I, too, hope you're post more and lurk less :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Gassert (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #516) on Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Leigh, Wonderful post.

I wish I had stated it as eloquently. I get passionate, too. Sorry one and all.

Welcome to the land of posters, Leigh. :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3282) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:39 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Could we get back to the part where someone comes and paints my house?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2150) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post


I'm confused: I've seen some pretty passionate debates here on BT, some that got pretty nasty.

This ain't one of them. Can someone point me to the horribly abusive posts that are alleged to have been made here? Or has Political Correctness reared its ugly head?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #19) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:01 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Susan,

I wrote a very long, pointed response to you with multiple examples of how your posts can sometimes come across as harsh, judgmental, and superior.

And then I erased it because I don't think it will help. I do believe that you're "confused" (your word) because, otherwise, you would choose your words/tone more carefully... unless you DO feel superior, want to be seen as one who sits in judgment, etc.

You have a very outspoken, strong personality. The way you express yourself can be a little harsh at times. Maybe you already know this about yourself. If you feel that you should be able to say whatever you want, in whatever tone you want, regardless of how judgmental or superior-sounding it reads, fine. But it can be a turnoff to those of us (okay, me) who don't live in such a black & white world... where our opinions are just opinions - not facts.

Ann Coulter believes she can say whatever she wants with no filter. Some people, who are like-minded, love her. I don't.

We're at a high-tech cocktail party. When someone is speaking in a less-than-friendly tone, we don't have the luxury of walking to a smaller, more civil circle of friends. If we don't want to hear it, our only option is to leave the party. That's why I think it's important to consider our words carefully and speak in a manner that is less confrontational.

You asked. I'm responding with my opinion of why some people are put off and afraid to post more frequently.

Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie {Moderator} (Moderator - Post #484) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:28 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

OK perhaps it is almost time to close this thread before it gets REALLY nasty, and think I see that coming.. Simma down Simma down I don't want to close it unless I have to

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marilyn M. (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #366) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:32 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

CLiff and Leigh, thank you. You have phrased my thoughts so beautifully. I have been extremely wary of posting even a gently delivered negative truth about my stay in Bonaire as I just do not want to deal with the outcry. I have become much more of a lurker. Disagreement, yes, intense verbal/written tap dancing on your head, no.
I would like to think any question/issue concerning Bonaire could be aired here. The exchange of information and ideas is something I truly love and would not like to see it hampered here.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ModCynde (Moderator - Post #625) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:38 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Take Freddie's advise and simma down now, simma down (as Sherry Otery would say).

I must confess, I haven't read any of this thread with the exception of the first post. Every day I could see that it was continuing to grow, and as this topic has been brought up on BT before, I knew which way it was going...SOUTH.

We are all entitled to our opinions, however, please be civil. Remember, think of it as a cocktail party, would you say these things to a persons face. If not, best to think of another way to make your point.

Rant off...

Cynde

PS, Fid, excellent point:-)

(Message edited by modcynde on February 22, 2008)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #154) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 11:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cliff and Susan,

Obviously you all have a bone to pick with each other. IMHO, if you all choose to continue it, maybe private emails are the way......? Cliff, I think your question was excellent, although I disagree with you on altering entry/exits on Bonaire.

I think this thread should remain open, because it is a good healthy debate. But if this pissing contest continues on here, Freddie is going to close it.





 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cliff Batson (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

You're right, Tad. Certain responses touched a nerve and I bit my tongue as long as I could.

That was my last post on this thread.

Doh!

Okay, THIS is my last post on this thread - even if I'm verbally waterboarded by subsequent posters...

Cliff

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Innkeeper Linda...25 days 'til ahhhhhh (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1312) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Leigh,
welcome to BT
As a long time lurker and sometime poster (especially getting close to a trip:-)) I echo your words. BT needs to remain open for ALL discussions but please, please don't come down on someone for expressing an opinion other than your own.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #155) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:29 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Don't let it be your last post on the board though!!

Some of us "Old Farts", when it comes to visiting Bonaire, need to be given some food for thought. Fresh ideas, perspectives, etc.

Just ask Freddie!!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #156) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 1:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Linda,

Shed the thin skin, and get in the game!! If you have an opinion...voice it!! Eloquently and forcefull....but respectfully!!!

People don't head to Bonaire because they have failed in life. They do so because they have made good decisions, and are successful!! If you can't manage to hold your own in cyberspace.........gosh, how do others manage in the real world?

Don't lurk........post!! In my business, yes men/women, are a dime a dozen. Others tell me I am full of crap!! Guess whose opinions I value more?


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barbara "CB" Gibson (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1581) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 1:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have to say that Linda has been posting here for years, and more than holds her own as a positive contributor. If there are times when she is too busy to do anything but lurk, I'm still glad to know that she's around...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2151) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 2:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post


I have and had no "bone to pick". I responded to his posting.

Cliff,

I never asked that question. I asked someone to point out the posts that everyone seems to find so objectionable.

If my saying


quote:

Why do people always want to make things more convenient FOR THEM???


after your first post seemed like a flaming to you I think perhaps you've been sheltered.

You said:

quote:

I don't even think I need to give examples of some of the more hazardous sites. If you shore dive, you know what I'm talking about.

Can steps be taken to help create a safer entry/exit point at shore diving sites? Is this something that the Bonaire government would need to address?

Is there anything that can be done to make shore diving entries and exits more safe???




I bet there are some Bonaireans who (should they happen to read this) might get offended at that -I can imagine them saying, "who does he think he is, telling us how to manage our shoreline? If he doesn't like it, he can go somewhere else!"

You say I come off as thinking I'm superior. To me, your post came off as arrogant - suggesting that Bonaire make changes to it's coastline because YOU felt it wasn't safe the way it is.

So I guess maybe the filtering should go both ways, hmmm?


 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leigh (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 2:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

My second and most likely final post on BT.....because, in the final outcome, I really believe that old saying....NICE MATTERS.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By **Patrick who herds sharks on Bonaire** (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #2637) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:14 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Just my 2 cents on this matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of the people OUR FROM THE NORTH and some OUR FROM THE SOUTH. Can you see the difference. I do!!!!!!!! Just by the way you post on this site. Some of you alt to be a shamed of the way you act and attack on some of these threads. RANT OFF!!

Cliff and Leigh, I will say I'm sorry for the abuse by some!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By **PegiSue Slap** (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #3558) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:17 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

One bad apple....
Some people make everyone look bad, and when it's pointed out to them they still can't stop...
Thanks, run everyone outta here, me included...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tad Jones (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #157) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 3:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Let's get out of here Peg!! Freddie.......are you going to let this continue??

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freddie {Moderator} (Moderator - Post #485) on Friday, February 22, 2008 - 4:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Nope too many posts on this thread this makes 94 time to close it if you want to continue start another thread..hopefully it will die a natural death.....

 


Visit: The Bonaire WebCams - Current Bonaire images and weather!
The Bonaire Insider - the latest tourism news about Bonaire
The Bonaire Information Site, InfoBonaire
Search Bonaire - Search top Bonaire Web sites


Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration