Hey all
I was just wondering if anybody knows if there's a very high risk of flying on an extremely short flight just about 5-6 hours after diving? I definitely know the deal with it being highly recommended to wait at least 18 hours after a dive before flying, but wondering if anybody knew if that's a very conservative estimate if one's going on a SHORT flight?
Basically, my only option for doing a top-rated dive is on my last day, so it would be in the morning and ends before noon, with my flight being at 6pm. If I had an international flight where they fly at a high elevation for a long period of time I wouldn't even consider it, but if we're talking a 20-30min flight at hardly any elevation, anybody know if (generally speaking) one should be okay? What's the worst that could happen?
I wish I had just one more day so it wasn't a concern, but unfortunately it's not, so just wondering if it would be extremely important to forfeit a top dive or if one should most likely be okay on a really short flight 6 hours after diving?
Don't mean to stir up any issues of safety for anyone, but any legitimate/honest opinions are much appreciated,
-Brian

Brian

You probably have the worst scenario as short trips usually mean smaller planes that may NOT be pressurised. It is the pressure change that causes the problem rather than the time.

Brian is that your only flight that day, I take it to Curacao?

yes that is my only flight that day..i wonder if I don't have as much to worry about if they tell me the plane is pressurized? i just e-mailed the airline...
so it has nothing to do with the elevation of the flight, but really whether the cabin is pressurized/not pressurized?

Brian F.
As a advanced diver you should know that flying 6 hrs. after diving is not healthy for you. Make sure that your dive insurance is paid up and that you travel with someone who can give the hospital permission to treat you. Good luck on your venture. OH and one more thing. Have you ever been HIT before? Ron

It's been a good while since certification..I can't recall what exactly the medical risks are? one always heres that it's important not to fly after diving but i can't remember the last time i've heard someone actually explain what the common risks are? would be good to know...

Brian, here are a couple of good articles from DAN on the topic. The length of flight does not make a difference, it is the altitude, how many consecutive days of diving you have been doing, etc. I'd skip the dive and get it in on your next trip, if not, you may not have a next trip.

Flying After Diving Recommendations
Flying After Diving

Brian - I have often wondered how much leeway there is in the 24 hour no fly period. I always do 2 dives the day before I fly and give it 18 hours but have met many people that strictly obey the 24 hour no fly rule.

The main risk here is that you would get bent. How deep your dives are will factor in to this. A friend of mine says you should be ok as long as you are in good shape. He says to keep it less than 30ft. Keep in mind that he has no diving experience at all though.

Please post what you decide on and how it pans out for you, I have always wondered how conservative the no fly rule is.

Brian, I would like to add that it's not only how deep your last dives are, but how long. On shallow dives you can stay down so long that you absorb lots of nitrogen. That is not good. Please read the articles suggested in this thread carefully before you make your decision. IMHO you should NOT fly 6 hours after your last dive.

Brian,

I would never recommend to any scuba diver that it is ok to fly with anything less than 18 hours out of the water. Personally I wait 24 hours.

If you decide to do this dive and the subsequent flight you are putting yourself at an unncessary risk for DCS. No dive in the world is worth the risk. You can always do the dive another trip, unless ofcourse if you get a serious case of the bends and it is recommended you never dive again.

Brian - What is the dive that you have to do? Deep, shallow etc.

it's just a shallow dive on my return trip, so i also will not have been diving for a few days before it..

I will have to agree with Jay on this one. When you look at the big picture...no matter what...everyone is different and as far as I am concerned no risk is worth it...your heath and life is more valuable than any dive you will ever do...hell the dive you want to do could be your last...so...my advice is this...don't throw caution to the wind unless you want to take the chance. As a passionate diver I plan to dive until my body gives out and for no other reason. Be safe and smart. Another day will come and another dive will grace your path.

Take care,
Kellie

Brian:
If you want to read the actual 2002 DAN Workshop data that everyone is mentioning, go to http://scuba-doc.com/fad_web.pdf.

In short, your risk is very high for any surface interval shorter than 9 or 10 hours, even after a single dive, and doesn't really decrease until you get to 15-17h.

It sounds like you are going to do it anyway, so you'd be well-advised to keep the dive short, keep it shallow, use the highest percentage nitrox you can get during the dive, and continue breathing that nitrox (pure oxygen would be better) after you are out of the water, for as long as possible.

Good luck.

- Mel

(Message edited by tursiops on November 19, 2006)

Sorry, when I edited my previous message, I left out part of the second sentence.

It should read:
In short, your risk is very high for any surface interval shorter than 9 or 10 hours, even after a single dive, and doesn't really drop to near zero until you get to 12h; for multiple/repetitive dives the risk doesn't really decrease until you get to 15-17h, hence the 18h recommendation.

- Mel

Not to sound greedy or callous of course Brian, but can I have your dive gear........afterwards? Since you won't be needing it?

"If" this is not a troll, then Mrs. Gump was indeed right I'm thinkin' with a second of the motion by Darwin. If you have to ask the question, there's little point in an attempt at a reasoned answer. So I just wanted to get in line for your stuff from your next of kin. I mean, heck, Christmas is coming and all that, so why not?

Back off Randy!

I'm gonna be on the island when this dive happens...so I'll just wait for him to surface and ask for the gear before departure.

Or I can just let the dive op know his intentions.

I think the best thing you can do Brian is to cut to the chase and call the experts directly!!!! the numbers you need are:
Non-Emergency Medical Questions
1-800-446-2671 or 1-919-684-2948, Mon-Fri, 9am-5pm (ET)
All Other Inquiries
1-800-446-2671 or 1-919-684-2948

and this is the number that you will need to call when you do this dive fly that you are intending to do..
Diving Emergencies (Remember: Call local EMS first, then DAN!)
1-919-684-8111
1-919-684-4DAN (collect)
1-800-446-2671 (toll-free)
+1-919-684-9111 (Latin America Hotline)

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quote:

It's been a good while since certification..I can't recall what exactly the medical risks are?

---

Hi Jay ....RATS! There goes Christmas.....

Well, bring the stuff to Haigh and maybe we can swap or sumthin'. lol

I just dove Haigh yesterday...water was 49 degrees...the whole dive I'm thinking in two weeks its gonna be 30 degrees warmer and I'm gonna be much more content.

If I had a flight leaving yesterday I wouldnt of dove though. ;)

Wow..Certainly no shortage of advice on this thread...
Firstly, I do not; nor would not condone what Brian is contemplating. At 50 plus, I'd NEVER do it. But, lets face it, he's only 25 years old, not 50.. Major difference! Assuming his body type is lean & muscular, I SUSPECT he would probably get away with it. I won't tell you the things I did when I was 20-25 & diving & flying the same day (back then we didn't have computers nor the benfits of all the recent doppler studies conducted by DAN).
Bottom line Brian, check with DAN & I'm sure they'll tell you NOT to dive. That is the prudent/safe advice.

HI Vince remember the old rule. Have a surface interval long enough to get to be a "D" diver then it was safe to fly. Did it many times. Some times only a few hours before flying after diving and yes I was young and fit. I think I still have the old tables with that rule on the back. They may even be old PADI tables. I know I still have my original Jeppesen Sport Diver Manual which states the same "D" diver rule.

Would I do it now, probably not. Although I just flew to DEMA with a 17 hour SI after a 200 ft Trimix Dive.

What I really want to know is what dive is "a top-rated dive is on my last day" ?

buy an expensive computer that calculates the time to fly based on a complex algorithm.

Why can't you do this "top-rated dive" earlier in the week? I would assume it can't be a shallow, short dive if you have such a limited window of when you can go.

Don't play around with getting bent - there are too many places in this world to dive to risk it all for one in Bonaire.

My old manual also States:

"If you dive a lot, you are less susceptible to the bends. In certain studies, a 50% drop occurs after 5 to 7 day of diving and a 75% drop happens after 10 to 14 day."

This would contradict the latest recommendations for taking a break in the middle of multiple dives over multiple days. Then again I think I read somewhere on the DAN Web site that the majority of bends cases happen in the first day or 2 of a dive trip. So if you survive the first few dives/days you have a better chance of staying out of the chamber.

Then again we rarely see a Dive Master or Instructor get bent down here and I have seen them do some extreme dives or series of dives in less that perfect condition along with Poseidon missile launch ascents. Yes I have been one of them from time to time and have survived. They dive almost every day multiple times. The body should get better at on and off gassing if it has to do it all the time.

I believe most cases that are not a result of someone being predisposed or doing something really stupid are caused by multiple contributing factors. Such as lack of sleep, Excess Alcohol consumption the night before, being over weight and or out of shape, fast ascents and lack of safety stops.

I guess it is fun to Reminisce about the time when Diving was Dangerous and Sex was safe!!

Walt

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quote:

I guess it is fun to Reminisce about the time when Diving was Dangerous and Sex was safe!!

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Well Brian..I can see we've all giving you our best sage advice in this thread. Time to reciprocate...
Why don't you tell us where the "top rated dive" is.
I for one will guess either the Hooker or Karpata..
**Walt** great advice..Let us all not forget (when we look at ourselves in the mirror coming out of the shower)that nitrogen has a high affinity for lipid tissue!! So, notwithstanding what your computer says, adjust your dives accordingly.

One thing to keep in mind, even with a pressurized cabin, is that they are not pressurized for sea level!! I trained a pilot once who told me that commercial airliners are pressurized to around 8,000 feet. Still altitude, still a problem.

Rule of thumb - single no-deco dive, wait 12 hours
Multiple day, multiple dives, wait 18 hours or longer.

I personally wouldn't take the risk.

What would probably happen, if it happened at all, would be a Type I DCS hit, mostly neurological, and most likely completely recoverable through re-compression. But, it could be much worse. No dive is worth the risk - IMHO!!

"What's the worst that could happen?"

You could die.

And then you could also be absolutely fine.

It all depends on the dive profile, the cabin pressure of the aircraft, your own personal physiology, and the alignment of the planets. That may sound like I'm trying to be funny but really I'm not. What may be fine for a particular diver one day may cause a DCS hit the next under what appear to be the exact same conditions. Unfortunately the scientists don't have this totally figured out yet. That's why the no-fly recommendations are so conservative.

Good luck.

The old "D" diver rule was used with old Navy tables that require much longer surface intervals than the newer tables to move from one pressure group to another. It roughly states stay out of the water long enough to move from whatever letter designation you are to a letter designation of D. Then you could fly or go to altitude. This is the rule we used in the 1970's & 80's.

My guess as to the dive site would be Town Pier or Salt Pier (based on posts in another thread)? Both shallow dives 30ft +/-. Do it on the richest Nitrox mix you can find and hope the Scuba Gods are with you that day!

In theory if you dove a 61% Nitrox mix (61% Oxygen 39% Nitrogen) to 33 ft. it would be the same as breathing air on the surface, you would have no additional Nitrogen loading of tissues.

Can I recommend you do this dive. No. For liability reasons. If you do it make sure you have dive accident insurance. Chamber rides are expensive.

it's too bad that when one asks for LEGITIMATE opinions they receive the childish:
""If" this is not a troll, then Mrs. Gump was indeed right I'm thinkin' with a second of the motion by Darwin." [bit far out of left field there mate!] and "Or I can just let the dive op know his intentions." [yea good luck with that!]
I actually have ZERO intentions on doing the dive prior to flying, but merely asked the question to see what my options might be. A sincere thanks to others who took the time to write their knowledgeable opinions/recommendations.
My main reason for asking is that I've heard from my grandfather that it was common for people in the navy to fly rather quickly after diving, although it clearly doesn't mean it's a good practice today. i'm also a law student and understand reality is that often businesses have to provide extremely conservative estimates when it comes to the potential of jeopardizing one's health (ie. the 24hr no-fly rule could be compulsory to state and enforce to all of the general diving public, even though it could be that only 1 of every 100+ people are prone to a severe risk, due to their own health, diving experience, etc.).
I did find out that the flight is NOT pressurized though, so does that make it pretty much a given that one's chances for medical problems are significantly higher? I agree 100% that it is not worth the risk; just curious if the risk is therefore much higher?
Thanks again for LEGITIMATE opinions..

I'm not sure how high your short flight will get, but if it's above 8,000 feet, then yes, it would be riskier than a pressurized cabin. The higher you climb, the less atmospheric pressure and the more likely to create bubbles that can cause you problems with DCS.

Brian..You've got a great grasp on reality. Good luck to you.. I've been involved with negligence work for 30 years & as you are acutely aware, things are MUCH different today! Hey mate, make sure that seat belt is buckled before you drive away!
A diving board by the pool...fuhgetabout it!!!!

Brian, apologies for misreading your original posting. I took several of your sentences as a strong inference that although you were aware of the dangers you were still considering the action and looking for someone to agree with it as a choice. Purely MY incorrect interpretation and therefore my response. In this self-neutering "politically correct" era I would never call a person stupid directly, and have opted to refer instead to Mrs. Gump and Mr. Darwin.

Going on any website and presenting a provocative question with the intent of generating provacative response and nothing else is my filter for what I call 'trolling'. Your question did fit that category in my mind.

Had you mentioned your followup disclaimer initially, it would have avoided any confusion. Heck, had you mentioned your intent to become a lawyer, some folks might have ENCOURAGED your involvement in dangerous behavior, not me of course, but some folks might.

Again my sincere apology.

"...even though it could be that only 1 of every 100+ people are prone to a severe risk..."

Exactly. The trouble is, they can't put a finger on who that person is yet. And people change from day to day as well which makes it even harder to predict who will and who won't get hit. That's the gamble and with the possible consequences being so sever the choice, as you recognize, is to be conservative.

Your grandfather is right about the Navy pushing it a bit. But back then even less was understood about DCS. Remember how long it took to figure out that Caisson' disease was actually DCS.

I agree with Mike about your flight. If it's below 8000 feet then it might be better than say an international flight at 35,000 where the cabin is pressurized to around 8000. But there's still another variable, the rate of pressure change in each cabin. Which one is faster? Remember back to your OW class when they used the soda bottle to describe what DCS basically is. If you take the bottle of soda and open it (releasing the internal pressure) slowly you only get a few bubbles at the top as the CO2 comes out of solution fairly slowly. Do it slowly enough and you won't see any bubbles which is what we try to do with our slow ascents. However, if you open the bottle quickly you get a rush of bubbles because there was a rapid decrease in the pressure that was holding all the CO2 in suspension. So, climbing to 8000 feet slowly may not be as hard on the body as climbing to 5000 feet very rapidly.

Lots of divers violate the 1000 foot post dive ceiling all the time, some without even realizing it, because they drive down to the coast to go diving but forget that their house is at 2000 feet above sea level because they're 100 miles from the coast and not on the side of a hill. I would guess that the reason we don't see a big problem here is because it takes around an hour and a half to two hours to make that change in altitude whereas in a plane it would be only a minute or so.

Btw, glad you decided to play it safe. No dive, no matter how cool, is worth getting bent and possibly screwed up for the rest of your life.

Randy, I've never laughed so hard! Excellent point

Good luck Brian, whatever you decide to do. Not one of us wishes bad luck or bad diving for you!

"..I can't recall what exactly the medical risks are? one always heres that it's important not to fly after diving but i can't remember the last time i've heard someone actually explain what the common risks are? would be good to know..."

I've been following this thread and keeping my mouth shut, but, Brian, this is an astounding statement from a certified diver. You really need to know this stuff before you strap a tank on and jump in. I for one would not want to dive with someone who did not have a solid understanding of basic diving physics and physiology. With that understanding, the risk of flying is obvious. I don't object to the question you asked, but you gotta know the fundamentals. Perhaps a Scuba Tune-up before your trip?
-David

David, it would have been better for you to keep your mouth shut. I'm completely aware that there are medical risks; if I wasn't, why would I have asked for the medical risks to be elaborated upon? I got certified on the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, and I understand the basic diving physics and physiology. If you did indeed follow the thread you would obviously noticed that I was asking for elaboration and most others were kind enough to provide it without negativity, not to mention my statement that I'm not even doing the dive and never intended to do so! I asked for a discussion in a discussion forum; is that too far-fetched?
I appreciate the knowledgable statements that most people provided, such as "If it's below 8000 feet then it might be better than say an international flight at 35,000 where the cabin is pressurized to around 8000. But there's still another variable, the rate of pressure change in each cabin." OR
"In theory if you dove a 61% Nitrox mix (61% Oxygen 39% Nitrogen) to 33 ft. it would be the same as breathing air on the surface, you would have no additional Nitrogen loading of tissues."
Clearly there's more to the actual physics than certification classes provide, largely due to legal reasons.
I'm certified for open water and advanced, and in neither of those classes was it ever elaborated upon that planes flying at different elevations, pressurized/unpressurized cabins, etc. play a substantial role in terms of potential medical risks (nor have I heard from another diver in any part of the world that they've thoroughly memorized all potential medical risks associated with scuba diving). I was told do not fly 18-24hrs after a dive, and not given much other detail. What's the harm in asking to reconfirm what one learned previously, and learn a bit more from other people's opinions in the process?
To infer that I shouldn't be diving and/or that someone else shouldn't dive with me because I took the time to inquire more thoroughly of the medical risks is ludicrous and completely uncalled for. I personally would be a bit weary of someone that didn't take the time to learn the medical risks in depth. It's disappointing that a fellow diver would automatically assume the worst of someone and make uncalled for inferences when they don't even know the person in the slightest. Is it that hard to keep the negativity out of a friendly discussion among divers? Evidently so..just please quit the self-righteousness.

Brian, methinks you doth protest too much. You sent four messages that were pretty clear you wanted to do the dive and probably were going to do the dive, to which there were 25 responses which nearly all provided you with much more than opinion...hard facts, citations, places to call, etc, and all of them saying "bad idea!" Then you pop up and say "I actually have ZERO intentions on doing the dive prior to flying, but merely asked the question to see what my options might be." Yeah, right.

On our last dive we had a 40% Nitrox mix, my computer was not logging any bottom time at 60 feet. I would not recommend this to bend the rules as it is always better to have the dice loaded in your favour. We always track our no fly time for a few days to make sure we are within the safe limits on both of our computers - We have two each.

howdy brian

ron here. ummmm, i think i came in late on this conversation. my take, lots of good info. don't think i can add anything of substance that hasn't already been said. just....can't we all just get along? ( rodney king ). i'm a little more than 24hrs. away from taking off for my 1st. trip to bonaire and getting ready to eat some bird. what a way to start the Christmas holiday!! i know you're from the san diego area, don't know if you're a chargers fan, but they did a number on our broncos. And the broncos will probably lose to the chiefs today. AND i don't care cuz i'll be diving in 2 days. diving with wannadive ( sounds as though it's a good op ).

i'm ramblin now so i'll just say happy thanksgiving,
happy trails, and happy & safe diving to y'all from the mile high city ( 5280 feet up & non-pressurized ). -ron

Mel Brisco wrote:
"You sent four messages that were pretty clear you wanted to do the dive and probably were going to do the dive"
You couldn't be more wrong Mel. Yes, of course I would like to do a top dive; who wouldn't? But obviously I was aware of the consequences from the very beginning, and after asking and then receiving further detail one would have to be a moron to do the dive! There was never one point where I was probably going to do the dive.
Enough of the nitpicking..

howdy ron
happy Thanksgiving to you too! yep dem chargers are lookin pretty good this year..can't count out the broncos yet tho buddy!
have a safe trip and i'll shoot you over an e-mail a bit later to talk more about our dives.
cheers mate..

sounds good brian. gotta go, have a date with a drumstick!

GO CHARGERS...we will be at the game sunday, to watch the Chargers cremate the Raiders.

Ron, sorry about the Broncos...what a game that was, and in the Bronco's home town...heh heh...oh, and did I mention GO CHARGERS???

hell yea what a game that will be! no better feeling in the world than Chargers cremating the Raiders..stinkin Raiders! hopefully they're ready for round 2...

Brian,

Just logged in for the first time in a few days. At the risk of resurrecting this thread, you really ought to re-read what you posted. Whatever your experience and training, you sound like an inexperienced or unwise person considering a dangerous undertaking for no good reason. I doubt anyone reading your initial posts had the impression you were merely asking an academic, hypothetical question.

Also, several of those who have taken the time to respond to your question asked you what "top-rated" dive you were considering. Given that they have taken the time to answer you, and I and others to answer your questions in other parts of this forum, it would seem the least you could do between flames to answer that simple question.

Last, while I may have expressed a strong opinion, the opening of your reply is beyond rude.

That said, I hope you have a safe and enjoyable trip to Bonaire.

Best regards,

David

David, yet again wrong on all accounts. All I gotta say is there's obviously a way to communicate with people about a top dive site besides the public forum, especially when one's relevant advice invites it and other's negativity does not. Who knows what you're hoping to accomplish, but I for one will not be wasting any more time on yours or anyone else's superfluous comments. Thanks once again to everyone who kindly offered their advice, and David I'd suggest a tune-up on your literacy...peace out!

Brian:

The obvious risk is DCS/DCI. What is the worst that could happen? (Note: This was your question, otherwise I would not mention it). In my book, a massive spinal hit that would cause paralysis and loss of bowel control. A hit that was not responsive to chamber treatment.

Like most things in life, this is the old risk/reward thing. Last I checked, the DAN guidelines were 12 hours for single dive, 18 hours for multi dives. Personally, I like 24 hours but will fudge that a bit. This year, for example, I did about 21.5 hours.

Those guidelines exist for a reason and people still get the bends even when following every rule. Many of the rules have changed over time (especially ascent rates) -- as has almost everything else since I was certified in 1977. Hairstyles. Clothing. Dive gear.

Still, undeserved hits happen (I recently heard of a case where the diver never went below about 30 FSW but did VERY long dives almost every day.) And this would fall into the category of deserved.

In any event, here is what matters:
a) Effective or actual altitude (most jets pressurize to 5k feet to 8k feet). Like others, I suspect rapid ascents would increase the risk.
b) Tissue loading (related to depth, time, workload, O2 mix, temp, etc., etc.)
c) Either random factors or factors that are not yet understood.

The short time of the flight would help in that you could seek medical attention sooner than if you were on a non-stop to Houston.

Here are the options as I see them:
a) Do the dive anyway. Accept a fairly high (but not quantified) of a hit. Pay attention to your body and be certain you are well insured.
b) Change the flight time to Curacao. One thing you could do is fly the next morning on Divi or later that night on DAE (or whatever it is now).
c) Try to work with another shop to do that dive earlier (many places go to Salt and Town piers) in the week. If it is east side, you could go with Bas from shore versus Larry (or vice versa). If it is the Windjammer, the risk would be way too high (to fly six hours after the dive).
d) See if you could charter an airplane to Curacao and get them to fly under 1,000 ft. This would mitigate (but I suspect in no way eliminate) the risk. I am aware of no studies evaluating the relative safety of this approach.
e) Do the dive with a very high 02 mix. While this increases the risk of an oxygen toxicity hit, it would mitigate (but not eliminate) the risk. Then breath pure 02 as long as possible. I am aware of no studies evaluating the relative safety of this approach.
f) Do the dive on another trip.

For me, the only acceptable choices are b, c and f. But that is me, I highly value being able to walk

That is a very big risk (anything from discomfort that resolves w/o a chamber ride to death to bad things that don't respond to a chamber ride) for a very small reward (one extra dive on my vacation).

Dave, you had me at loss of bowel control.

Slightly off topic, but here is an amazing story about Richard Pile http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/pile/cmd.html

Great article David..Gives new meaning to the phrase "young & stupid". Frankly, some people just never learn.

Brian,

Whatever, not going to bicker with you. I had my say and you had yours. Done.

As long as this is a theoretical discussion, is there a difference between doing a dive then flying and doing a dive at altitude (say, a lake dive in the Rockies at 5000 feet? tables such as these http://www.sierradive.com/Altitude.htm exist for diving at altitude. In theory, a dive to 50 feet at an altitude of 5k feet should be the same as a sealevel dive followed immediately by a flight to the same altitude.

I am certainly NOT advocating this, having no training or experience in altitude diving. And the obvious difference is that at an alpine lake one really doesn't have the choice of just waiting longer. But can anyone see a difference in terms of diving theory?

-David

David J,

An amazing story

M2C

To David Frank, Walt, and all others who bothered to reply and give advice:
Yup, I agree!

To Brian Feeney:
Not giving ALL the facts in your initial post mislead All the responders. You baited them, added info not previously provided, and then attacked their responses that YOU asked for. Not right! Reconsider why and how you post.

Smack

PS. I've had it with PC. It's time to say what you mean!

Mr. Feeney,
The BT message board is a very silly place to seek modern medical knowledge about common diving safety. Freddie has provided the DAN number where you can get free telephone advice. I doubt any insurance company would cover you if you did become bent by flying six hours after a dive, and I doubt any operator would give you tanks if they knew your intention.

Not sharing your "Top Rated Dive Site" information is just being rude to everyone, especially the people who have gone out of their way to share their superior knowledge with you.

Failing to reread your diving manuals after a long absence from diving is rather reckless. They are not thick books. Your original question and subsequent postings make it obvious that you have retained little of your dive training.

In short, if you don't want silly answers, don't ask silly questions.

Brian: Care to share your top rated dive spot?

Vince & Bob Smits: The first time I read that article I was so conflicted. I couldn't wait to read the next sentence yet I was almost afraid to. Sort of like a watching a car wreck in slow motion.

Once I tried to keep track of the bad decisions as I reread the article. Some were so far past bad... To his credit, the author did not pull any punches about what he did or shade it. And, while the very risky practice of in water recompression is a topic for another day, my guess is that probably saved his life. And only through youth, luck and great care in Hawaii did he regain mobility!

As previously mentioned, I elected to share the top dive site via private means with those who were kind enough to post their insight early in the thread. Why would anyone disclose that sort of information with individuals such as "Smack" and Seb who clearly having nothing of substance to add but complaints in what could have been a friendly discussion among divers. It's my opinion that unfortunately top dive sites do not sustain their condition if posted in a public forum for all the world to see..would be nice if that wasn't the case!

Well David much of what you say is true.. But I for one was put off by his non-chalant attitude of deep diving AGAIN...Yes, we have all made mistakes, but many of us learn from them.

Specifically, he scammed the insurance company for paying his medical costs by pretending to be a student at Univ. of Hawaii. He also scammed the US taxpayers who support the military to pay for his private airfare. And on top of this he clearly indicated he would continue to deep dive!

I for one wonder whether if he had been made to accept the burden of the financial impact of treating him for his stupidity (which would have cost over 100k to my thinking) whether his attitude to repeat such idiocy would have been so cavalier!

How and a dive site be both top rated and a secret?

Not only that... it's BONAIRE. If he picked up Shore Diving Made Easy, he'd probably find his "secret" dive site listed there.

What a silly little twerp - I don't care if he is supposedly in law school.

I will merely add that purely in MY personal opinion, young Master Feeney seems IDEALLY suited to the legal profession. Stereotypes HAVE to be preserved dontcha know?

lol

your mileage may vary, shown with optional accessories.

heh..discussion forums..always good for some laughs!! thanks for that.. :-)

One can only do a deep dive, then fly, once!

Lawyer jokes anyone?

i'm not even a lawyer so have it! people go to law school for many reasons apart from aspiring to be a lawyer..but i do laugh at such ignorance.
well unfortunately i'm offline for a good 3 weeks now..thanks for the laughs and have fun entertaining yourselves..cheers!

Classic Trolling boys & girls. Absolutely textbook. Thanksgiving School break must be over.

I just have to add that I want my attorney's nickname to be "The Feen Dog". Nice. Catchy. ;)

People who go to law school but aren't lawyers are usually called people who flunked the bar.

Brian F, after a few good faith postings, I am disappointed.

My conclusion:
You = Troll
Me = Chump who thought your question was worth a thoughtful response.

Done.

Brian F said

"As previously mentioned, I elected to share the top dive site via private means with those who were kind enough to post their insight early in the thread."

Did anyone receive a PM from Brian F, I am not asking which site, more interested in how honest he was with us.

wow get a life people! to be that interested in a person in cyber world is appalling...what's next??
hahaha...
(one last message at the airport)

As a matter of scientific curiosity, I kind of hope he does do the dive and then flies a few hours later. It would be a rare opportunity to test the edges of the models and recommendations. It might even be that both Haldane and Darwin are proven right in one simple experiment!
- Mel

Brian F.
I would hope that if you continue this type of troll behavior for your own amusement, you will be tossed from this board. I have no patience for idiots with nothing better to do with their time. If your profile is correct and you are truly a cert diver, find another interest before you hurt someone. The members on this board deserve better treatment. I personally have had it with you and I'll be watching this board. I'm done with this thread.

I have been busy last few days and just read the thread http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/30/303987.html?1164813565 If he is that desperate to do Town Pier why not snorkel? What an rrrrrrrrrrr

Thanks Brian...Boy..I don't know about the rest of you but I was certainly on "pins & needles" trying to figure "the top dive sites".. Now that we all (thank god) know, can we please put this thread to bed.
I believe the appropriate word is RAMBUNCTIOUS (although I'm sure others can certainly come up with their own words which may or may not be permitted here)!!

David,

You asked a question about Altitude diving that I don't think anyone responded to! Actually I got lost a little in this post myself.

I dive at altitude several times a year in Oregon, and the main difference is that your loading your tissues based on the altitude that your diving at. If using the tables, then you'd use a conversion table for 1,000 to 2,000, 2,000 to 3,000, 3,000 to 4,000, 4,000 to 5,000 etc.... Two things come in to play. One, you should allow yourself up to 6 hours for your body to get acclimated to the altitude and two, you are limiting you depth and bottom times based on the altitude in which your diving. IE. on the tables, you may be actually diving at 83 feet, but with the conversion table based on the altitude you may need to calculate as though you were at 92 feet. On your RDP, that would be a difference of calculating the dive at 90 feet versus 100 feet - several different rules would then apply, as well as a shortened bottom time. If using a computer, such as Suunto, then you'd put it into altitude mode for 1,000 to 5,000 or above 5,000 feet. In this mode, the computer would calculate your no-deco time limits.

You asked if doing a 50fsw dive at sea level and then going to no more than 5,000 feet would be any different than doing a dive at 5,000 feet. The short answer is Absolutely. The main difference, is that after doing the dive at 50 fsw at sea level, you may completely load your tissues depending on your bottom times. Going to altitude right after, even under 5,000 feet would have a much larger risk of creating a bubble that may cause damage to the nerves and tissues. Anything above 1,000 feet is considered altitude. We deal with that on a regular occurence in Oregon, as we have mountain passes that we sometimes may have to cross. It's not that much different than jumping in a plane that's pressurized to 5,000 to 8,000 feet. When your diving at altitude, your loading your tissues baseed on the altitude that your diving, therefore, your not reducing the atmospheric pressure around your tissues by flying or driving over the passes, which may cause bubble formation. Typically, when diving at altitude, your going to stay at or go below the altitude your diving at, thereby leaving the atmospheric pressure the same or increasing it slightly as you descend from altitude. So diving at altitude, does not increase your risk of DCS if following the tables or computer. Whereas, flying even at low elevations and reducing the atmospheric pressure around your tissues could have an impact on DCS, the same as driving to altitude. I always remind my students that you can jump off a plane and dive, but don't do it the other way around, as well as a lot of tropical destinations have some form of volcanoes, such as Maui and Haleakala (sp), of which I just returned!!hehe Don't dive in the morning and then go up the volcano - it's just like jumping in a plane!!!

Mike,

thanks, see new thread, flying after diving II - I'd like to see this thread die the death it so richly deserves.

-David