BonaireTalk Discussion Group
Diving Bonaire: Windjammer
Bonaire Talk: Diving Bonaire: Archives: Archives 1999-2005: Archives - 2004-08-15 to 2005-06-05: Windjammer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MONTY FORBESS (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #8) on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 5:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

going back to bonaire june1st is there any recent updates on the windjammer site? thanks

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #13625) on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 5:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Monty, BOPEC has closed the access to the site. You can no longer dive there. (That's the way I understand it anyway)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MONTY FORBESS (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 6:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

thanks cynde, if you hear any updates will you please let me know, thanks,...you know the reef there was also a very good dive even if you didn't choose to go deep to the wreck...hate the closure

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Monique Anckaert (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 10:36 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Last time we dove on the Windjammer was end december 2004. It would be a pity to close the site as indeed also the reef is more than worth the dive. I'll try to have some information from Buddy Dive. Some people there use to dive on the Windjammer from time to time.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish Dace (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #108) on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:02 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The site is closed. The dive shops have been trying to negotiate reopening it, but until that happens diving and snorkeling at the site are prohibited. This includes the reef as well as the windjammer. Bopec is an international dock, and security from terrorists is the issue. Lately a US naval ship has been located in that northern area. (See Roger's thread on that.)
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Pritchard (BonaireTalker - Post #20) on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Could you dive it from a boat?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ceestoosmiekesuizanne (BonaireTalker - Post #24) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:28 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't think you can, Tom. The site is closed, officially because it is too dangerous to dive there. I forgot the details. A wreck at too great a depth, too much current. But maybe you're right, stating that security has something to do with it.
Toos

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Monique Anckaert (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #9) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 2:57 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

You cannot dive the Windjammer from a boat. Even the people of divecenters that used to dive it did it from shore. They said that no diveboats were allowed there because of security reasons. That's the same reason why now you also have to ask permission to dive on Salt Pier, as before it was enough to have the Pink Divebus on the site.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish Dace (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #117) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Toos,
The closure has NOTHING to do with the danger of diving the windjammer.
Docks for international ships now have special security restrictions to prevent terrorist attacks, and Bopec is such a location.
Bopec has chosen to close the site (the reef as well as the windjammer) to divers and snorkelers rather than try to arrange for limited diving under supervision, with passports approved ahead of time, as is the case at Town Pier and Salt Pier.
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #128) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 1:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I wonder how many of the dive accidents at Bonaire are WJ related. It seems, more than a few.

It's not that hard a site as deep wrecks go. However, the clarity of the water and the ease of entry also lure folks into a false sense of complacency. At that depth, you will get narcosis (worse you will probably not know it), you will breath up your air fast, you will need staging to decompress safely. It is especially inappropriate without the operational training and working up gradually to deep diving.

I know some very very experienced divers who have had some really close calls there and they were doing it "Right".

Over the years, I've known of more deaths there than anywhere else.

Some individuals (With very limited experience of dive mastering) on the island were promoting the dive as "Easy". In the view of dive operators I have talked to and myself, this was very irresponsible of them.

If your dive operator cringes at the thought of taking you there, there are reasons. They also may have an assesment of your abilities that are more accurate and less positive than your own self image.

I would also suggest that people ask themselves, "Why"? Nothing to explore or discover that hasn't been discovered before. Nothing you can recover. Its not hard, just takes planning and care. That leaves "Dangerous thrill" as the only real motivation. so ... a little self honesty here is a good first step to planning such a dive if you must.

Bopec probably also got sick and tired of their operations being curtailed by rescues. They are not in the cheap thrill business. They are in the petroleum export business.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish Dace (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #119) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The Bopec site closure had nothing to do with dangerous diving. It was about prevention of terrorism at international docks.
I've never heard of anybody dying who was trying to dive the windjammer. The Bonaire Reporter said the recent death was a man just diving the reef there.
You obviously know a lot about deaths of people trying to dive the windjammer, Geoffrey. Can you point us to any BT thread which deals with this? Or any other source of information?
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sue Goodman (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #165) on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:36 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

If the closure is about terrorism, why don't they put in place a similar policy as we now have at Town & Salt Piers. You must dive with a local divemaster. I would recommend that BOPEC add the stipulation that this divemaster is on their approved list.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan Porter (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #135) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 7:14 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Town Pier and Salt Pier do not have tankers going into their docks. The International Port Security people take that very seriously. You will not see the BOPEC site opened anytime soon. There has also been much discussion about building a new cargo pier outside of town due to these same regulations. Be very happy that we are still allowed to dive the Salt or Town pier at all. Susan

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1347) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:23 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I'm actually surprised BOPEC wasn't closed sooner, given the situation.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Frank (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #178) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 6:22 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey,

While I have not dived the Windjammer and do not plan to, I think the attraction of diving a large, intact historic wreck is obvious. If the only reason to dive a site is to discover something new or see something no one has seen before, or to recover artifacts, then why do any of us dive Bonaire at all? All dives including shallow calm reef dives entail risk, however small. That some choose to train and plan so that they can see things recreational divers cannot does not mean they are just adrenaline addicts. Non-divers might say the same thing about those of us who avoid current and extreme depth, stay out of overhead environments, etc. It's just a matter of degree.

I am sorry never to have dived the Bopec site and hope it is eventually reopened. But there are enough reef sites on Bonaire and it seems a shame to lose the one site attractive to tech divers - though I doubt anyone comes to Bonaire for the sole purpose of doing this dive.

David

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #133) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 9:16 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Don't get me wrong, if people want to dive the windjammer AND they really know what they are doing, then fine. However, I think most people do not know what they are doing, demonstrated by the number of accidents that occur there over the years ... way out of proportion to other sites on the island. Its not a surprise, its an especially deep dive. Things can go from "Whats the big deal?" to horror much faster at 160 than at 60.



It's not a "Historic" site, certainly not compared to some of the ones available elsewhere. It's a crappy old beat up windjammer way past its glory that was transporting tar and sank. To me its no more interesting than the Hilma Hooker and considerably deeper. If you want real history, with actual research to do, then there are far more interesting dives in this world.

And ... tish, just talk to any old hand dive operator on the island. That's the real history and its a long one. The wreck attracts fools with a a hundred dives or so who think they have something to prove.

Here is something to consider ... if the same wreck were in 50 feet of water, would it be such a big deal? More people would dive it but they would not boast of it. It would just be fun but prove nothing.

I think people need to look at their own motivations and also understand their risks and the additional skill and experience that they need to be safe. It's not a trivial dive.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish Dace (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #121) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 10:33 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey,
I entirely agree with you that nobody should attempt a 200 foot dive who is merely a recreational diver. Anybody diving to such a depth must have the training, the experience, and the equipment required.
I only disagreed with your assumption about why Bopec closed the site.
I also asked about accidents. Can you provide any details?
I have had a couple of private messages which suggest that the recent death did indeed involve the windjammer. But are there others?
Thanks!
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Frank (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #179) on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 11:12 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey,

When I say "historic", and perhaps that isn't the right word, I mean "not sunk for divers". To me there is a difference between a deliberately created tourist attraction and a ship that went down in service. Doesn't matter if she was hauling tar, garbage or treasure, she had a crew, was a working ship (in this case one of the last generation of sailing ships) and was lost. That is intrinsically more interesting than a ship that has been carefully scrubbed, perforated with openings for divers, and placed strategically for maximum diver access and revenue generation. It is the difference between traveling through Europe and going to EPCOT.

Sure, more people would dive the Windjammer if she was at recreational depth (I would) and obviously a dive to 60 feet does not confer bragging rights on anyone. There will always be idiots who will be attracted to a deep dive for the sake of saying they did it, and for no other reason. This in itself is no reason to close a dive to qualified individuals.

Were there no shipping/security issue the obvious solution would be to require a guide and Trimix training/other appropriate certification.

All this is apparently moot given the closure. It is sad that a place as remote and removed from most of the world's lunacy as Bonaire cannot escape the consequences of 9/11 and the "War on Terror".

-David

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #134) on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tish,
I have been diving in Bonaire for 15 years. Over that time, I have simply heard many stories of accidents on the windjammer. I did not bother to keep count. Personally, I have been diving for over 35 years. One thing I have learned is that an uneventful completion of a deep dive does not mean the site or the operational plan for that site is safe. It also does not mean that the diver themselves is skilled or experienced. I have done many deep dives in more severe circumstances than the windjammer.

With the possible exception of the dive plans used by some technical diving courses on the island ... most dive plans I have heard of for the windjammer are naively dangerous.

I think many people are cavalier about the risks in proportion to the benefits.

If you dive long enough and in deep dives, you will eventually have a surprising and sobering experience. I know divers who I consider world class, very well known on Bonaire and some with military and industrial training who had close calls on the windjammer. I think the reason for this is in all aspects but the depth, it appears easy and that breeds complacence.

At that depth, when the unexpected occurs, the margins are razor thin. Even though you may not feel like you have narcosis, when something happens, you will be compromised in judgement and ability. It takes several minutes to make a safe ascent and the first minute or so, you will not get relief from the narcosis. Can you keep your cool? Can you keep your breath under control? Consider something as simple as your mask falling off and then making a blind ascent.

Do you have the skills to handle an emergency with your buddy without getting killed by his or her panic response? (which will be severe in this narcosis environment) What would you or your buddy do? Are there circumstances that your buddy should avoid attempting to help? (Yes)

If you are using air ... you are very close to the limit for CNS.

David ... the point is that its not worth it. If you have the knowledge and experience to do it safely, you are going to be more inclined to use those resources on a similarly deep dive that is worth it. If your thinking is this romantic ... you are already on the wrong track.

I am greatful that the war on terror has provided a reason to shut the site. Some people will be alive who would not have been.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Deal (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #431) on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 9:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

To each their own...I personally believe it is sad that the site is closed. I always found it a beautiful and alluring wreck, and feel it is unfortunate that those who would want to dive it will not now have the opportunity to do so. I do find it somewhat a stretch to believe that the "war on terror" must include restricting dive sites on Bonaire.
In memoriam, then, the following limited effort at capturing the experience:
windjammer

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fiona Rattray (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #322) on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 2:14 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

David, I agree with your posts #178 and #179.
Thanks for the photo, Robert. I too hope BOPEC will rethink its decision and allow properly certified divers (e.g. trimix, rebreathers) to dive the site with a (properly certified) guide... of which there
is at least one on the island :-)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #135) on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Fiona, I think it makes sense to have the site restricted to guides with proper certifications. These guides could hang extra tanks, assure that their divers are in reasonable shape, provide decent size pony bottles and so on. This would assure that there are all the elements of a safe deep dive.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Buck Inman (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #1) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:08 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey,

Never fail to remember that most barotrauma occurs in the first atmosphere.

CNS can occur at any depth, for any number of reasons, from head injury to epilepsy episodes.

Oxygen toxicity normally, and I emphasize normally, occurs at or around 297 feet in depth; however, most dive professionals agree 230-240 feet is the max safe deep air dive.

DCS is the main enemy on the Deeper dives such as the Windjammer; but, a properly equipped and experienced diver could easily navigate the wreck without mishap. I have done it several times. It should not be done without a computer and redundant gear.

Remember, the port side rests in 139 feet of water, with the crow's nest in 202 feet of water.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #142) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:50 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Buck ... don't tell me how to suck eggs.

Believe me, I've been diving a long time and a whole lot. (35+ years) You have told me nothing new though your assembly of facts is a little strange to say the least. I especially love the idea that 297, not 298, not 299 ... that's the exact figure eh? Nothing to do with prior dives or what mix has been used on them? Does not vary from day to day? You are right 230 is the Max ... its not optimum. And, yes, personally, I have myself been to that depth on air.

For a variety of reasons, the windjammer has a history of people taking it on who clearly should not have and then who paid a high price.

One of the reasons why it is dangerous is that people rationalize it as "no big deal", exactly as you seem to be doing. People use facts without really having the experience to develop an operational comprehension of how to plan a deep dive safely. DCS is not the main enemy on the windjammer, stupidity is. This is heavily influenced by narcosis and people who don't understand how it can effect them.

It seems that like most relatively inexperienced divers, you do not understand how narcosis really works and how to plan a dive with that potential in mind. Whether you feel it or not ... you can be quite compromised at that depth. If you were truly experienced, you would know that eventually a dive of as little as 100 feet could get the best of you.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sue (BonaireTalker - Post #96) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 1:37 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Many years ago - people knew about the Windjammer and dove it on their own. The few dives shops that were around then did not supply much info about diving the site. Yes there were people who dove it and yes there were some people who ended up in a chamber after they dove it. why did they end up in the chamber - If you looked at their diving profiles prior to diving the wreck, they had doved a lot during their vacation. Even so one keeps careful records of down times and out gasing, one has to remember each of us reacts differently as to what is out gased from our systems.

I have seen newly certified divers going down on the wreck and people who have made lots of dives.

Should the wreck be opened - thats up to BOPEC. But as far as safety - maybe this will cause a good look as to who should be diving it and better planning when or if one will ever be able to dive it again.

I am sure this whole issue will be debated because someone will say if I have a computer I am safe. Don't bet on it - the computer profiles were created for a general population. They do not take into account age, certification level, body structure, what you do while you are not diving and a whole lot of other factors.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marcus L. Barnes (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #313) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I recently read on article in one of the dive magazines that said air dives should be restricted to 180' in order to avoid oxygen toxicity. How did you guys arrive at 230 - 240'? What's the source of your information? Just Curious.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Westfall (BonaireTalker - Post #30) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:01 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

This is how the depth for oxygen toxicity is arrived at.

Most recreational training agencies teach a maximum PPO2 level (partial pressure of oxygen) of 1.4 with a contingency limit of 1.6
For the maximum depth formula you divide the PPO2 level by an atmosphere 10 meters or 33 feet. This results in absolute feet or meters of pressure (14 or 16 meters) or 46.2 and 52.8 feet
With this information at hand you divide 46.2 by the oxygen content in air of .21 IE: 46.2/.21=220’ minus one atmosphere or 33 feet =187’ for 1.4 PPO2. Or 52.8/.21=251-33=218 feet for 1.6. PPO2.
As stated in several other responses the real danger at those depths is nitrogen narcosis. Until you have felt your world shrink to what is immediately in front of your eyes and had to use every bit of remaining mental faculties to do something as easy as locate your alternate air source you won’t understand. There is really no difference doing a dive to 180’ on air and returning alive than going to the local pub and having several strong drinks and then getting in your car and driving home and arriving safe. It just comes down to common sense and what you are willing to risk.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #143) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The key is whether people are mature enough to consider what can go wrong and whether they are prepared for it. If the prospect of a 5 minute blind ascent after losing your mask is horrifying ... you should not be going that deep. If it seems unpleasant now, try that with narcosis.

One sure can have the kind of dramatic response to narcosis that you describe Tim. What is neglected by people lacking experience is the more subtle factor, simple defective judgement, more prone to panic etc. There is a big difference between how you breath when all goes well, do you have the cool to maintain that when its not going well? Do you have an extra breathing system for that? And, if you are panic breathing, a "Spare Air" is like handling dental floss to a drowning person.

The numerical stuff is important but only a start. When someone understands that even good divers have bad dives, they can then claim to be making informed decisions. Romantic thoughts of a wreck are not enough.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Westfall (BonaireTalker - Post #31) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:30 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Having been trained and practiced deep air I thought I was doing a safe dive every time I went deep, and according to training and excepted practice I was. After the first tri mix dive I realized how close to the edge I had been. The difference is dramatic and life altering. My air limit is 165’ now and that is pushing it.
Our local dive spot is cold and clear and we have access to 325’+. On any given weekend during the dive season you will find. Deep air, Tri mix and Inspiration re-breather divers doing there thing. The only fatality in 7 years has been on air to 240’ and it was the instructor.
The moral of the story is exactly what Geoffrey is saying, even good divers have bad dives, and it only takes one.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #13746) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:55 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Where's Walt III?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mare (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #871) on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:38 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, good question!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt III (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #233) on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:54 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The reason I have stayed out of this is because I will piss off most of the people who have posted here and I don’t have time for a debate right now. I’m too busy teaching divers how to do deep technical dives. So if you expect another response or think you are going to draw me into long drawn out debate think again.


Geoffery there has not been more deaths there than anywhere else. Karpata has 2, pink beach has 2 the Hooker has a couple and there have been many more at other sites. Granted they are not all dive accidents many are heart attacks. The Windjammer has had 2, one a Heart attack the other Darwin at work. Karpata’s 2 were also probably Darwin at work. The 2 at pink beach just plain disappeared at night. Should we ban night diving as dangerous?

“If your dive operator cringes at the thought of taking you there, there are reasons. They also may have an assessment of your abilities that are more accurate and less positive than your own self image”.
This one I have to agree with. There are some divers that should not be diving let alone diving the Jammer. Probably 25% of the divers on the boats these days shouldn’t be diving for one health reason or another. What did I read the other day over 60% of the population of the U.S. is obese and of those 30% are morbidly obese (the rest of the world is trying hard top catch up)? Do we stop them from Diving? No we don’t, we just take their money and hope like *%$# they don’t check out while on our boat.

“I would also suggest that people ask themselves, "Why"? Nothing to explore or discover that hasn't been discovered before. Nothing you can recover. Its not hard, just takes planning and care. That leaves "Dangerous thrill" as the only real motivation. so ... a little self honesty here is a good first step to planning such a dive if you must”.
There is quite a thrill as you come around the stern of the Jammer and see the stern mast and crows nest. This wreck is a natural wreck, most of the pieces and parts are still there and at 239 ft long with a 40 ft. beam she is quite impressive.

Stern crows nest

BOPEC has not performed 1 rescue although the fishermen have done many hauling those out of shape and out of air back because they could not swim back against the current on the surface.

As to the point of having it a guided dive BOPEC does not want to deal with the hassle. Divers can’t follow the rules at the 2 other piers why should we think they would follow them here. It’s much easier to close it period. Then they know anyone diving is breaking the rules.

Geoffrey more accident happen at the Hilma Hooker than the Jammer.

I have refused to take divers that just want to put 200 ft. in their logbook. I refused to sign one logbook because the diver broke the plan just to set a new personal I’ve been there.

Curo (council of resort operators, read dive operators) adopted a very good set of Technical diving rules but VERY FEW follow them.

Geoffery in your post Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 8:50 am you pound your chest and say you have been diving Bonaire for 15 years well I have lived and worked here for 15 years and probably have a better handle on what really goes on here. I have also been diving for 30 years so I think I can speak with some experience. Many of the plans suck there is no plan the go down and hope for the best others I have seen carrying an extra tank under their arm complete with all 4 hose and pink hose protectors. Others stash tanks on the reef above then engage in an Easter tank hunt at the end of the dive. The Jammer divers over the years have given me some of the best laughs and you know what almost all survived!!!

As to the CNS debate this is really not much of a problem, the possibility of Narcosis for the inexperienced is more of a problem. 180 to 200 is not a CNS problem unless you plan on staying longer than 2 hours at that depth.

There is no other deep dive on Bonaire better than the Windjammer. It is one of the best deep wrecks in the Caribbean.

There is nothing wrong with deep air. Everyone needs to choose their max limit on air. I find 180-200 works good for me. I have over 1000 Guided man dives (if you add up all the divers and add myself) to the Windjammer the majority of those on air or 23% Nitrox most of these are guided dives to 180 with NO problems. I also have 100’s of Trimix man dives there with only 1 problem. One diver ended up in the chamber this diver was a Technical Instructor and we did a VERY conservative profile. The one truth about Technical diving is ”if you don’t want to get bent stay out of the water” if you do enough dives your turn will come up.

We are working hard to get it reopened and think we will in the future.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt III (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #234) on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:21 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

The End

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #13754) on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:56 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Walt, glad to see you "surface" ;-) A pleasure as always...oh, and love that picture!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #146) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 8:43 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Walt you really should read what I posted and not others misreading of what I said. Everything you addressed to me was not really addressing what I said but how others chose to respond to it. That is more than a bit annoying.

You might also note that I specifically said that it was a fine dive when properly trained for or supervised. Though I did not mention you, I was thinking of services such as you provide.

I never said that more accidents happened on the Windjammer than anywhere else, only that they do happen and that not everyone is qualified to attempt it. The idea that the Windjammer is "Just another dive" only a bit deeper is what I am objecting to.

I particularly said that I think the Windjammer is OK for those who have a good plan and can stick with it.

I never said that there was any significant risk of CNS at those particular depths. Someone else launched into that one. I did say that people underestimate the risks of Narcosis. I also said that some people get lost in the technical trivia rather than really consider themselves as a component of the dive.

So please ... before wading in and addressing an individual, read what they wrote, not what others wrote in response. It's unfair.

Given your entering the thread without really reading it carefully, I find your last picture insulting.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (BonaireTalker - Post #17) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 9:30 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I've been good up until this point but...

Geoffrey I think you're the pot calling the kettle black now. You say you feel insulted, but in fact you've talked down to every single person that has dared to challenge your OPINION of this dive. One person in particular you insulted by calling them "inexperienced" and then proceeded to lecture them in a very arrogant and condescending manner. Upon checking his profile I find that he is a current YMCA/CMAS/SDI certified instructor with tec diving experience and that, by comparison, you are only a RETIRED, PADI instructor.

I have read all of your posts in this thread and quite frankly I think Wally was right on target. You brought this on yourself so just get over it and stop fishing for sympathy by whining that your a victim.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Tweed (BonaireTalker - Post #39) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:49 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey, you are so far off base you are in the stadium parking lot. What I find annoying is you don't even read your own posts.

When Walt says:

Geoffrey there has not been more deaths there than anywhere else. Karpata has 2, pink beach has 2 the Hooker has a couple and there have been many more at other sites. Granted they are not all dive accidents many are heart attacks. The Windjammer has had 2, one a Heart attack the other Darwin at work. Karpata’s 2 were also probably Darwin at work. The 2 at pink beach just plain disappeared at night. Should we ban night diving as dangerous?

He is directly responding to your statement.

"Over the years, I've known of more deaths there than anywhere else."

Your subsequent post confirm your belief:

"However, I think most people do not know what they are doing, demonstrated by the number of accidents that occur there over the years ... way out of proportion to other sites on the island."

Then suddenly backpedaling, you respond to Walt:

"I never said that more accidents happened on the Windjammer than anywhere else, only that they do happen and that not everyone is qualified to attempt it. The idea that the Windjammer is "Just another dive" only a bit deeper is what I am objecting to."

So Geoffrey, I am again going to suggest you read your own posts more carefully, until you can comprehend what you wrote,, because you seem to have a very high opinion of yourself, a very low opinion of everyone else, and selective retention regarding your own statements.

My bet is I'm looking forward to a very nasty response from Geoffrey on this one, but I'm used to his schtick; his well-considered posts are far outweighed by his combative rants.

Geoffrey, I think you owe Walt an apology, which I'm sure will never come. Because he HAS read your posts, which, apparently, you have not.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MONTY FORBESS (BonaireTalker - Post #22) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:27 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

HELLO, maybe i didn't want to dive windjammer anyway, i've really enjoyed reading the threads though, and do realize that our level of training does not qualify us for this dive anyway, we do have 202 though, and would probably just have done a fly over anyway, hate to display my ignorance, that's a louisiana thing, but what are they referring to when they use the term darwin at work? thanks

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mare (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #881) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:34 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Monty, the Darwin Awards link is here.
According to the Darwin Award website, the Darwin Award is


quote:

honoring those who accidentally kill themselves in really stupid ways




Mare

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MONTY FORBESS (BonaireTalker - Post #23) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

thanks, that's a really interesting link!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John"Smack"Anderson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #703) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 12:27 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Walt for the information! The REAL information. I hope you get the apology you so much deserve. Dive safe!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michelle_S (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #197) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Mare,
I heard many years ago that the other (unspoken) part of the award is that it is given to those who kill themselves not only in extremely stupid and entertaining ways, but also before they have a chance to procreate; thereby improving the species by not making a contribution?


The words I fear: "Hey, check THIS out!"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mare (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #882) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Michelle,
Short answer:

Yep.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Geoffrey (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #147) on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 4:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Mr. Tweed -- READ MY POSTS. You continue to demonstrate an inability to really do so. I don't disagree with anything that Walt says of a technical nature ... so I am offended that he acts as if I did.

My statement is simply what my own impressions are. I did not say that I have counted every accident, or counted every dive made (nobody has) or that I have special knowledge, only an impression of things based on conversations with people over the years.

Nobody knows what percentage of dive attempts end in injury or fatality on any Bonaire location. Not me, Not Walt. Many more people dive the Hooker than the windjammer and it is hardly surprising that more accidents occur at the more heavily dived site. Walt, that more accidents occur on the hooker is absolutely irrelevant to any judgement of how much care should be used at the windjammer. Do you disagree with that statement, Walt?

If you think you are safer on one dive than another because more people were hurt on the other, you are a fool. I don't think that's what Walt was saying either, I hope not. Walt runs a responsible tech diving business. I believe that and I always have believed that. If you want to take on dives such as the Windjammer, see Walt. That Walt appears to think I said something elsei s what hurts my feelings the most.

What I did say is that the windjammer requires more care than many people give it and PEOPLES STUPIDITY in that regard, makes it dangerous. It has indeed been the locale of injuries and fatalities that seem related to poor training, poor fitness and poor care. Walt do you disagree with that?

And so ... please read my posts ...exactly what statement is made, not what you think I made. To make it clear as paint ... I will sumarize it for those who understandably can not be bothered to read it all.

1) Dives past 130 require special care and I recommend training such as Walt provides.
2) I believe the windjammer attracts more injuries PER DIVE but I can not prove that and I don't think anyone can disprove it since nobody counts dives per site.
3) I would favor Bopec permitting guided dives on the windjammer with a limited list of pre-approved guides, with skills and experience such as Walt provides in his program, and with standards pre-defined by someone such as Walt.
4) I am glad the Windjammer is not open to any idiot who thinks he knows how to dive on it. I think there will be fewer injuries there because of that. Wise men may differ, but that is how I see it.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Tweed (BonaireTalker - Post #40) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 12:29 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey, did you read your quotes I posted? Your post #133, first paragraph, is not presented as opinion, or impression, it is presented as fact. My problem,sir, with your posts is what reasonable information and opinion you have to share is interspersed with utter fabrications presented as fact. It's like listening to Cap'n Don, except he's amusing, and you get belligerent when challenged.
So please, Geoffrey, as a good,wise,experienced, old yankee diver and Bonaire hand, drop the impressions, you confuse folk with them, and they detract from your mostly sane advice. Read your replies; it's not just me.
Have a great weekend. Be Happy.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Peters (BonaireTalker - Post #18) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:03 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, talk about not being in touch with reality. Geoffrey, I sure hope you don't treat people in person the same way you do here or some day someone is going to knock that chip you like to carry around on your shoulder off.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cap'n Buck (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #2) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:39 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/cgi-local/bbs/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=gfeldman-users

Geoffrey, You manage to offend and insult in a superiorly arrogant manner. You also make stupid assumptions of opinions that don't complement your own.

I learned to dive when sex was safe and diving was dangerous. After diving 6 years, I was certified in '72 in Puget Sound. I wager I have enough experience and knowledge to make the statements I have made. I was merely attempting to correct the statements you have made to mislead.

You alleged potential CNS problems that would be a rarity, if not unique, on a single tank dive to that depth.

Also, if you had the knowledge and experience you profess, you would know that the 297 foot level is calculated as the depth that most (not every one, granted, but the larger majority) divers achieve a 2.0 pp of O2 breathing 21% mixture, or the air you are breathing now. You can program Nitrox computers to treat 1.4 or 1.6 pp as the limit. (I am a Computer Nitrox Instructor for SDI as well). It is generally accepted that 2.0 pp means death, regardless of depth, usually by drowning, due to the Gran Mal Seizure (the first symptom of oxygen toxicity) leading to expulsion of the second stage and ingestion of water.

Now, if I have related erroneous facts, or misleading statements, I would like to be corrected or engaged in intelligent debate, Geoffrey. Otherwise, as Walt so elegantly stated,

<img>



I am an active instructor, and I have experience on the wreck, and I will be back in Bonaire in two weeks. If the time, conditions, and availability are all right, I will probably do it again. If it is closed, I will not.

Remember, never dive beyond your ability or confidence level, and never assume superiority over nature.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cap'n Buck (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #3) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:53 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

To the other posters here, please continue with the good discourse. I enjoy learning and you guys are demonstrating clear knowledge and a desire to share.

Thanks,
Buck

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John"Smack"Anderson (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #705) on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 11:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Geoffrey, the more you post, the deeper the hole gets. Is it time to concede to those with the knowledge of what's what? That would be a smart move, IMHO.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ceestoosmiekesuizanne (BonaireTalker - Post #27) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 3:06 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

It started with a simple question:"are there any recent updates on the windjammer site?"
Look how far we got.........
Toos

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Cousino (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1893) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 7:39 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

ceestoosmiekesuizanne, I agree.

Let's see, Monty asked "is there any recent updates on the Windjammer site". By responses from informed people, we learned:

(1) That the site is still closed.
(2) That people are trying to get it reopened.

Whew, fortunately Monty got his answer early;-{)}

I don't know about you ceestoosmiekesuizanne, but I also enjoyed people sharing their personal experiences, photos and knowledge of the site.

Of course, as an added bonus, we have been able to enjoyeyes, a whole bunch of noise.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By seb (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2266) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 9:45 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

OK, we totally need a sound file to hear how to say ceestoosmiekesuizanne

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cynde (BonaireTalk Deity - Post #13770) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 12:44 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Seb...LOL...ceestoosmiekesuizanne...can you please sound it out for us phonetically?

OH, and at least my deepest fear did not come true...another DEEP DIVING THREAD!

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin de Weger (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #4008) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 1:05 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde, Seb, you have it in the mail / IM...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish Dace (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #137) on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 2:46 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Cynde,
I can see it now, dark lighting, foreboding music (maybe the Jaws theme), and every night we will have this terrifying dream, as the creature rushes towards us, mouth gaping, the monster "another DEEP DIVING THREAD"!
Please, please, any frightening critter except that. . . .
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Banker (BonaireTalker - Post #21) on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 5:42 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

We drove to BOPEC during a surface interval between Karpata and Oil Slick May 16th. It was closed for diving, swimming, etc.

When we were first told of the BOPEC site a few years ago, it was suggested never to dive there with a tanker at the dock; so we always waited until it was clear. This year, there was not one, but two tankers in the area. One was tied up, the other was being maneuvered by two tugs toward the dock. We could hear the rumble of the engines at Karpata; it was slightly disturbing.

Two years ago, we got caught in a northbound current that began just north of where the Windjammer mast lies in 25ft of water. It was a struggle to get back to the boat ramp snorkling because we ran out of air. I wouldn't want to be in that situation with tugs and tankers in port.

I think BOPEC should open the dive site, but like Salt Pier, conditional on when there are no ships at the pier. Since we are not diving the pier itself, a divemaster shouldn't be necessary.

Bob

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cap'n Buck (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #4) on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:25 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Well, fourteen more days 'til check outs, advanced course evaluations, and just plain recreational fun with my son in Bonaire. I hope the beauty of the walls and the juveniles on the reef hold true to last trip.

How are the restaurants holding up?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cap'n Buck (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #5) on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:27 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Recent sea horse sightings??

Is the golden one still on Karpata?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cap'n Buck (New BonaireTalk Poster - Post #6) on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:28 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

BTW, I heard the Mari Bahn is being dived again.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Pritchard (BonaireTalker - Post #25) on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 - 10:58 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Really? Any details? I am anxious to know because the instructor who is our trip leader takes his other instructors and divemasters to the site.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susan Porter (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #141) on Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 8:05 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

The site is officially closed. There are groups working on trying to find a way to get it reopened. If folks abuse the closure there will be no options. Please ask your friends to refrain from diving there illegally.
Susan

 


Visit: The Bonaire WebCams - Current Bonaire images and weather!
The Bonaire Insider - the latest tourism news about Bonaire
The Bonaire Information Site, InfoBonaire
Search Bonaire - Search top Bonaire Web sites


Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration