Looking for feedback on this dive op....anyone?

Yellow submarine is fine for guys, but I advise females against diving with them because one of their dive-masters (Gerrit sp?) can't seem stop himself from sexually harrassing girls who dive there. Sorry if this seems a mean thing to say but it's true...

Not mean if it's true, Jeff. No gentlemen around to speak up? That's the really depressing part. If this guy isn't the owner of YS then the owner should be told. Yesterday.

I agree with Seb, I would hope that something would have been said to the owner's if that were indeed the case. How are they to know if something isn't said.

(Message edited by cyndelee on February 11, 2004)

Jeff,

I know a bunch of the staff at Yellow Submarine, which includes women. In fact, the owner's wife is there day-in, day-out. I also know a number of male and female divers who regularly frequent Yellow Submarine when they come to the island on repeat trips. Same goes males and females who live on-island and use Yellow Submarine for their dive supplies (Tanks, training, etc.) In fact, Linda and I had our "adopted" Antillean daughter Aisha (she's not legally adopted, but has been part of our family almost since we've been on Bonaire), certified to dive with Yellow Submarine last summer, and she had a fabulous time. Aisha was 21 at the time.

That's not to say that your story isn't true Jeff, but did you (or the affected party) complain to the owner (which is certainly not the person you reference in your public complaint), Jan Kloos, or his wife Margreth?

I know Jan is aware of your post and deeply concerned. He called me because he was trying to figure out how to contact you since your e-mail address is not in your public BonaireTalk profile (and it would be a violation of the BonaireTalk privacy policy to provide your e-mail address to him unless a law was being broken).

I suggested to Jan that he use the link in your BonaireTalk profile to send you a private message via BonaireTalk. As such, I hope you are monitoring your mail and will respond to him with specific examples of the harassment problem you reported in your single BonaireTalk post so that he can take appropriate action.

Jake

Hi, my name is Jan kloos and I am the director/co-owner of the Yellow Submarine.
I am taking the essence of this discussion very seriously and contacted Jeff as suggested by Jake.
I hope and rely that Jeff has seen, heard or experienced something that did not really happen.
My wife is at the shop all the time and I am there for a great part of the day. We did not have any complain from our female customers. In the contrary, our guest book is fool of happy messages!
I hope that this will end the discussion for the time being and request all BT participant to wait for my or Jeff's comment.
Regards,
Jan Kloos

Thanks for your response Jan and Jake. Firstly, let me say that I didn't really mean to start a discussion about the merits or demerits of Yellow Submarine here. I have done a liscence there myself and found the Yellow Submarine to be a highly flexible and generally very laid back and professional dive shop. I have also never had a problem with any of the staff there an everyone seems to know what they are doing. I would particularly recommend the place to anyone fed up with the hassle and chaos of the bigger dive shops.

On my last stay in Bonaire, however, I was underwhelmed to find that my girlfriend (who I recommended should do her liscence there) was sexually harrassed by one of the male staff there. Now, I know that Bonaire is a chilled place and I know that a lot of dive masters can seem a little flirty with girls sometimes, but as a customer I do not expect my girlfriend to be harrassed in any way at all. It is not professional for an instructor to watch his pupil get changed, staring or making sly comments or slapping her bum. But these are the things my girlfriend had happen to her there.

I did not mention it at the time because, like I say, a lot of divemasters are simply like that and I know that the divemaster in question is otherwise a skilled instructor. Rather than complain, I drew my own conclusion and refrained from doing planned boat dives with YS because, frankly, I cannot be bothered to sit in the boat with someone who makes it his business to make sly remarks and advances on my girlfriend. I was actually trying to forget the whole issue, but scanning the boards found this thread and felt inclined to comment.

I don't want to badmouth the YS at all, it is a very good dive shop as such. What happened to my girlfriend may well be a one-off, who knows. Besides, I also didnt mention the issue because I dont actually want the dive-m in question to get any trouble. I dont feel strongly enough about the issue and consider it more of a personal offense.

Jan, I will check my mail and get back to you. Thanks again for your response, and sorry for spawning a potentially image damaging discussion on here... it is really not my intent.

Jeff,
You don't really mean "watching her get changed", do you? I imagine what you might mean is watching her get into/out of her wetsuit.

I think it might have been better for this to have come from your girlfriend, as the "injured party". As it is, you come off as an overprotective and jealous boyfriend - and please understand, I am not saying that is what you are, just that that is what this sounds like.

Susan, yes I mean getting changed in terms of wetsuit. I don't agree with you on "overprotective" and "jealous" boyfriend, though, cause I know that my girlfriend was very annoyed with it all. Not all girls enjoy this kind of unwanted attention, some may do, but my girlfriend definately doesnt. Besides, it's a matter of principle: what the instructor does when he's off duty away from work is his business, but making sly remarks, staring and touching bums at work IS NOT PROFESSIONAL, and insult enough for me to refrain from wanting to sit in a dive boat with someone like that. If he did that kind of stuf in a bar at night then I would declare him nothing more than a slimeball... but doing it in a work-environment makes matters worse.

Besides, like I said, I consider the issue more of a personal offense and I wouldnt make a formal complaint about it.

Jeff, if you thought that alleging sexual harassment would not start up a discussion about the dive shop involved, you must be, no offense please, incredibly naive. If your girlfriend told you all this and your response was not to go to the dive shop at once and raise the roof, well, I cannot comprehend that. It sounds to me like you both need assertiveness training, pronto. When you are employing people you have a right to expect a certain level of professionalism. Frankly, I suspect this is much ado about nothing, a lot of crossed signals and people who don't speak up when they feel uncomfortable.

Addendum: If the DM was watching your GF get into her wetsuit, I think that falls under the description of his job, observe and tell her how to do it easier if she is struggling,and make sure she does not tumble into the ocean.

If this tale is true, Jeff, you are not getting the DM into trouble, he is getting himself into trouble by his actions.

Seb,

I doubt it is part of the job to watch her getting her wet-suit on for so long that my girlfriend has to ask him to leave cause he was making her feel uncomfortable with his staring. One thing is "watching and checking", the other is "undressing somebody with your eyes"... get me?

And no, I am not naive... I didnt care so much if it would start a discussion, but I didnt think so many people with an interest in the issue would read this single thread. I am not a regular here and dont know the level of activity you find in most threads.

And yes, it is of course his fault but when an issue is important enough to me I would complaint formally, but this issue is more like a big nuisance than a real problem.

Besides, "alleging sexual harassment" sounds very serious like from some kind of lawyer TV program. Hhe... I am not in America here and I dont like court talk. All I am doing is reflecting on some out of order actions/comments made by one of the YS divemasters to my girlfriend. Neither my girlfriend nor I find the issue heavy enough to prompt us to make a formal complaint about it.

Sex, scuba, harassment, yeah, who would want to read about that?
I understand the diff. between observation and undressing with the eyes, believe me,I've worked with showgirls that would knock your eyes out, and people have differing levels of comfort. But a simple sharp comment or two should stop such behavior.

Such as
"Why don't you take a picture, it'll last longer?"
" Do we have a problem here?"
"Is that a knife in your pocket or do I need a new instructor?"
"if you can't control your libido, I think we are now done with this course and no, I am not paying for this treatment"
"are there any DMs here who aren't sexually predatory, or are they all like you?"
" could we go and talk to the owner right now about your creepy attitude?"
"You know, you make me uncomfortable, I need a different instructor, do you have any female instructors?"

If such comments don't stop the problem, it needs to get kicked upstairs to the owner.

If this incident did not still upset you, it would not have been sufficient impetus for you to make your first posting here. No one has the right to rain on your parade unless you are doing something wrong.
I completely disagree that this is not a big problem, what if this guy had a couple of naive young girls as his students? What if he tries to get over every woman who comes his way? Such people need a wake up call.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

There are lots of womanizers amongst DMs, it's just a little frustrating when someone keeps making advances despite being asked to stop. I dont think that what happened would qualify for a huge "sexual harassment" case (unless you had very good lawyers), but its enough to be out of order and annoying. Of course many girls get this kind of "attention" all the time, but in a professional environment it really has no place at all... Even on the laid back island that is Bonaire.

Of course we are only talking about ONE of the staff, and acording to the director there have been no other reported cases. It may then be that my girlfriend is simply very pretty, which I guess should be a compliment to her (and thus me), but it really doesnt feel that way hehe

Ok, lets let the issue rest here, I dont think we should blow the issue out of proportion.

Jeff,
No one in their right mind thinks your girlfriend should have had to endure this; just that if her requests that it stop fell on deaf ears, she should have told the nice people who owned the shop.

I know it's hard when young to confront people who make you uncomfortable, and harder when despite all you say, they persist - believe me, I know: when I was young (before "sexual harassment" was actionable and just cause for dismissal here in the states) I had a boss who would not take no for an answer. He made my life miserable.

All I was saying was it would be better if she be the one to voice the complaint.

And as Seb says, if this guy has a problem, it needs to be made clear to his bosses, so other pretty young girls don't have to feel the way your girlfriend felt.

Susan,

I get what you are saying, of course, but it's me who is writing here because, like I said, my girlfriend and I did not really want to log a formal complaint and it just so happened that I encountered this thread when scanning the boards. I guess the main reason why she didnt say anything (bar to the DM in question) at the time was that I dive at the YS and she wouldnt want to embarrass me. But anyway, neither of us felt quite so strongly about it and we just let the issue rest.

I can assure you that it's a lot easier being a guy, sometimes, because there seem to be a lot of men out there that cannot see girls as anything but potential sexual partners. If you want professional treatment it can be hard going as a girl. Men would probably be quite proud to get this kind of unwanted attention from women, though hehe

This is a pretty public board, and any complaint lodged here is much more prominent than a formal complaint to the diveshop, and much more damaging to YS. It is not fair to anyone for you and your girl to suffer in silence, and then suggest the dive shop is bad for women to use in a print forum which is archived and searchable.

A: I didnt suggest the diveshop was bad

B: I dont think we should be turning this discussion to the question as to whether it was correct of me to post this here or not. I really dont think its that extreme to post a bad experience on a public forum: after all, you wouldnt complain after every bad meal you've had and still you'd probably find it correct to post your impressions on the dining board. A dive shop is no different.

It has been awhile since I have written but this thread I had to comment on. I am returning to Bonaire in a couple of weeks and was considering using Yellow Submarine. When I read Jeff's response yesterday my immediate response was, no way am I using them. After reading the conversation today I have changed my mind.
Jeff, I suggest the next time you or your girlfriend have a problem like that, you take it up immediately with that person or their boss. What happened was totally inappropriate, but the way you handled it was totally inappropriate as well. I don't understand how you can think that your comment won't be discussed or questioned. The next time something happens that you consider a "personal offense" maybe it should be handled that way and not on a very public board.
Mary Lou

Ok, once and for all everyone. Before more people get the impression that I am slamming the YS, let me take back what I said originally. When I said "I advise females against diving with " I didnt realise the repercussions that would come from this forum. This is forum talk after all, and people (myself included) frequently exaggerate to make their point heard.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YELLOW SUBMARINE IS A PERFECTLY GOOD DIVE SHOP, AND ONE OF (PERHAPS EVEN THE) BEST DIVE SHOPS I HAVE DIVED WITH AT BONAIRE. They are very flexible and offer much more personalised and laid back (in positive way) service than any other dive shop I know on Bonaire.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only thing that happened was a few out of order remarks/actions by one member of staff there and the issue is really not as great as it suddenly appears on this board. I consider what happened more a personal issue and I am very sure it's not a regular occurance. I dont want to damage the YS's image at all cause I consider the place a very good addition to Bonaire's dive scene.

Please everyone just forget about what was said cause the sum of the posts just creates island talk and stupid rumours. IT really isnt all that serious, concerns only one member of staff, and I am in touch with the director and would like to keep the discussion away from here pls. Thanks.

"I didn't say the dive shop was bad"???????
You have got to be kidding me!!!!
What exactly were you saying to the female divers coming to Bonaire?
ML

Misread that... Lets let the issue rest, shall we?

I am glad you are in touch with the director. Should have been handled that way from the beginning.
ML

I agree with you Mary. Posting here was just at impulsive decision and I should have been more careful before posting on a public board. The Yellow Submarine is a very good dive shop and I have no qualms with it at all. I can recommend it to anyone, regardless whether male of female and shouldnt have posted my comment here.

I just want to say that Yellow Submarine is very concerned about their reputation here and appear to be very interested in setting the story straight. My husband and I are planning a trip in September and because of the excellent customer service and correspondence I have received from these people we are definitely booking with them!

Thanks Jeff,
We accept your appologies in your personal e-mail.
Discussion closed!
Jan, on behalf of the staff of Yellow Submarine

Hey Jeff, Welcome to BT! This is as bad as it gets. Now you really know the meaning of the idiom, "opening a can of worms"

So is the guy saying that you'll get bashed over the head too, like poor ole bas??