Hello everybody!
I am a french diver and want to know if dives over 100 feet are possible,
and if there are some interesting sites to see in this case in Bonaire, like arch, rock or beautiful wreck.
Do you understand me ?
Sorry for my bad english...
Thank you and see you later in Bonaire.

Pitaine
Oo°(;){)

Jean,

For your information there are several wrecks at almost at 100 feet, the Hilma Hooker a 360 feet freighter and a sunken tug at the dive site Front Porch. There is also an old lifeboat in front of Capt Don's Habitat that is slightly deeper than 100 feet.

There are no special arches or coral formations. Bonaire is completely surrounded by reef and you will be able to see many different soft and hard coral. Bonaire is also a very good place for the very young fish so you will see many, many of these. Visibility is almost always greater than 20 meters.

Someone could mention the Schooner, but wonder what Lenny did to it in late 1999. If the mast is gone and it is broken up any more than prior to 1999, might not be worth it.
As I recall, it lies in about 170 feet.

The "schooner" is NOT a recreational dive, this is one of the reasons it is unmarked.

It was unaffected by waves generated by Hurricane Lenny.

Jean

We do Guided deep dive for those that have the certification to do so. You can contact me at info@rectekscuba.com for more details. If you are interested in Tri-mix dives or certification you can get more info at Habitat Tri-mix info

Jean

Lets Try That Link Again

Habitat Tri-mix Info

I fixed the link Walt. Otherwise I would end up with a mail box full of bad link messages. Very selfish of me, I know :-)

Jake

Thank's at all.!
I precise: in France, with a CMAS 3 stars, i can dive close to 65m (210 feet) breathing air with a buddy ... only for interesting spots.
Bye.
Jean
Oo°(;){)

Thank Jake

Not sure how it was posted that way??

Walt III

Jean,

You have triggered a Pavlovian reflex on this BBS. Any mention of the Windjammer, even as 'the schooner', results in 'it's not a recreational dive', as if no diver coming to Bonaire has been taught about depth and personal safety, or as if anyone on the BBS has ever said it was. Beyond that, Americans simply don't understand CMAS and other European and worldwide diving systems that train divers and then let them be adults. We do it for auto drivers--solo all the time and at any speed without 'buddies' or highly experienced instructors along--and private pilots, but not scuba divers. With your experience, the Windjammer is fine with your choice of gear. Enjoy!!! Non carborundum est.

Glen, on exactly what do you base your statement "Americans simply don't understand CMAS and other European and worldwide diving systems . . ." ??? and did I miss a communication in which Jean stated his experience and his choice of gear ???

It appears the Pavlovian response on this one is coming from you. I won't even get into your so-called comparison to automobile drivers and private pilots, but when was the last time you recovered a dead diver's body for his next of kin??

I knew I could count on you, Kelly. Last body 1963, by the way.

A slow learner ??

You know Kelly, sometimes you really are a bit of a loose cannon with a very short fuse. Why this simmering aggression lurking just below the surface all the time?
Yes, you did miss a communication in which Jean stated his experience....CMAS 3 STARS. I'm not knocking PADI or any other recreational certification, but there is simply no comparison... The guy is trained for such dives, & beyond.
Don't tell me you're not talking PADI here, because "recreational diving" is their phrase. BSAC is the training agency here in the UK, & like CMAS, operates as a club with weekly meetings. This results in strong bonds between the members & a sharing of diving knowledge by everyone involved in the club, for which there is no substitute. It's invaluable!
Sadly, there's a danger that the almost instant dive fix of the PADI system will weaken such organisations. Because, what beginner would choose them, with their longer & more arduous training, when for a few dollars more they can do a 4 day PADI course that gives them a card allowing them to dive most places on the planet. Nevermind that their training may have been in 25+ degrees & 75foot viz & now they are about to plunge into 40degrees & the viz is so low they can't read their guages. They're qualified, so it must be ok, right? Wrong!
Sorry. Got a bit carried away there.
Before you ask...mercifully I've never had to retrieve a dead divers body, but I have seen a psychiatrist recently. How about you?
Don't let him bully you Glen!

Glenn :
There are numerous places in the U.S where you can get advanced training for both 'recreational' and commercial diving. From what I learned from PADI is not to do these advanced procedures without first getting instruction from a qualified instructor. How does this fall in the category of not being adult??

You also contridicted yourself with the quote "when for a few dollars more they can do a 4 day PADI course that gives them a card allowing them to dive most places on the planet" This statement implies to me yes you are an adult go out have fun diving but don't be stupid.

Also, what terminology does your certification place on dives > 45 meters in depth, Cave diving, etc. Hopefully not 'recreational'.

p.s. My open water dives were at 2000 meter altitude with record temperatures and vis. Of 15 deg C and 3 meter visibility. I would never go back there to dive for the fun of it.

Andy, again you add and subtract (read distort) information to suit your brand of logic. As to agression, the only thing that really riles me, besides a short air fill, is stupidity that inadvertently causes harm to others.

CMAS 3 stars indicates dives and training accomplished as does any rating (regardless of agency). The way you continually rant on PADI one might assume you had to seek training elsewhere? I do not care how many meetings you attend and how many chums you dive with, unless you have actually done the dives and kept your training and skills current you do not have the skills or experience necessary to lead or recommend. Thus the reason for my comments to anyone wanting to know about diving a particularly deep site.

You said. " . . .I have seen a psychiatrist recently. How about you?" My response is, No and I am sure you don't want to take this one any further.

Jean:
Having read all of the above, you still should go with someone who knows the location of the windjammer, and has some experience diving on it. You might try Wannadive Bonair and they might take you or point you in the right direction to a dive master that is willing to do it.
Just my suggestion, but as noted divers have died on this wreck.

To All:

Gee we are getting very emotional here! Lets all calm down and try again tomorrow. Lets be realistic as to everyone's certification level, and please understand they are NOT all equal.

Walt III

I was always taught that the limit beyond which compressed-air diving becomes risky because of nitrogen-narcosis starts at 100-130 feet for most divers. I have been to 140 feet in cold (Calif.) water and got slightly narc'd. What I really didn't enjoy was the decomp time (boring) that was longer that my bottom time. I was working with an instructor who was an ex-marine recon and he was very cautious about decomp time as he had been hit with the a mild case of bends during his service days and had seen others with bad hits. I also have seen people get narc'd at less than 90 feet when they have been less than physically or mentally in top shape. The adult part, in my opinion, is knowing your limits, sticking to them, and not risking someone's else's life to save yours or to recover your body. There have been many times when I have said no way, I'm not going in. And a few where I ended up having to help pull people out of the water who didn't have enough sense to say 'not me'.

Whether divers have died or not is not the reason to have an experienced person with you on the Windjammer. It is a technical dive and to prevent an accident should be the reason.

If we are prone to use scare tactics as some are inclined to do (not you Alan), then please - I have to add - stay away from Pink Beach....two divers were lost there a few years ago and by all means stay away from the Hilmer Hooker, where some poor soul had the embelism and was dead by the time he hit the boat, because of the fast ascent from a depth no different from most dive sites on Bonaire.

Scare tactics are not the motivator - safety and responsibility are.

Now that this is a new thread, I can discuss this further....where the HECK are all you safety conscious experts when you let a 300 pound diver, who can hardly breathe on the surface in a sitting resting position, dive from a boat and then give him 45 pounds of weight to keep him down (sarcasm here)....We see atrocities like this (and other examples of irresponsiblity) weekly on Bonaire and around the world.

I don't consider an island divemaster experienced because of the training he has received, but because of his experience diving the sites. Yet, most businesses use them and 'tell' everyone they are experienced divemasters.

It sounds like selective reasoning to me. Why is it when someone states his qualifications (here or other threads) and asks or states something, the experts come out and tell all why or why not, mostly why not....

When we hear Capt Don tell about using colored ribbons and watching the colors change (colours - for Andy and Brit readers ) to tell their depths, I'm sure he isn't advocating doing that today...it's what he had at the time to do the dive. I'm sure there wasn't a rush on ribbon on Wednesday morning following his outstanding presentation the night before. People aren't idiots.

What about all the 'neat' pictures that are shown us (I'm not zeroing in on you Walt, just using the expample) about 'deep' wrecks or maybe other things....you think that because a diver is 'carrying a dozen' or so tanks that the viewer says, 'gee, I can't do this dive because I don't have that many tanks and if I did, I wouldn't know what to do with them' or 'gee, look how safe they are being, look how responsible they are'...

No, they look and say, wow...neat, but I wouldn't do that cuz I'm not qualified to do it - not any different when they read about how to do a deep dive or who is qualified for it. They know they need training to dive like that.

I have a stupid question - do you drop the tanks to assist someone in trouble, or do you say, not me, I won't add to the statistic....how do you aid with your hands full....it seems to me that having your hands full is more irresponsible than leaving tanks at a KNOWN, EASILY FOUND SAFE site. Almost like diving deep, alone, isn't it?

Divers watch and hear about all kinds of dives on TV, but they don't flock to go do them....not any different than the people reading here....they are NOT stupid people here (just strange people in funny looking pants, etc), so discussing something is not endangering them, in my opinion.


Jean...getting back to you - you can do 100 ft plus dives at any dive site on Bonaire....and there are things to see if you are so inclined to dive that deep....Bonaire claims - diver freedom, but I would advise use it wisely (that wasn't for you, but for the people so inclined to feel that phrase is a free ticket to kill themselves)

There are Sargasum Triggerfish at 130 plus ft. - hundreds of them - but only in particular areas of the island. There are barrel sponges on the leeward side, but only in 130 plus ft - again only in specific areas. There are some extraordinary indentations (notches) from the last ice age with some great looking sponges at 150 ft plus. I won't tell you where, but they are there.....

Have fun and be safe.
Sorry for the rant folks, but I'm getting tired of the condescending expounding that goes on here and elsewhere.

We are not stupid adolencents who jump to the chance to injure ourselves on every written word and I for one don't like the insinuation that comes across in the name of "for the benefit and protection of all".

P.S. PADI doesn't come close to CMAS or BSAC when it comes to training expertise....but, it's not just the training, it's the experience of using those skills responsibly.

Sorry for the delay in response Kelly... had to grab a few hours sleep.
Right, firstly I don't continually rant on PADI.
I didn't have to "seek training elsewhere" as you put it. PADI were more than happy to take my cash. There might be the very rare person who fails a PADI Open Water course, but I don't know of any case where the student hasn't been allowed to part with his or her $'s! So, my basic training was with them & I think that their Rescue Diver qualification is excellent.
Tom, I'm sorry mate but I couldn't make much sense of the first part of your post? Are you saying that having a PADI "C" card allows you to dive in most open water situations, but you have to be sensible with it? Surely, that would be like letting everyone have a firearm licence & telling them that they had to be sensible with it, too? Oh, but I'd forgotten.....you already do that don't you? Works well, doesn't it?
I humbly sugest that, unless we are using HSE part 1 (sorry, I don't know what your USA commercial equivalent is) then we are diving recreationally. Whether the dive we make is to 10 or 160 feet, it makes no difference. Whether we're using a hooka pipe, air or a helium mixture, we are diving for pleasure. Well, I am anyway.
Needless to say, we're all agreed about having the skills, & keeping them current, to do the planned dive.
Kelly, it also goes without saying, that as well as the countless hours spent "bonding" in smoke filled pubs, the typical dive club finds the time to fit in the occassional dive.
I've been really careful in the above ramblings to try not to upset Walt.... I'm still hoping to use his computer in a week or so! But come on Walt, this is a nice healthy discussion. Perhaps best thought of as "a battle of the minds, between two unarmed opponents!"
Finally (you'll be pleased to hear), I do want to go further about the psychiatrist...I see him most mornings as he leaves for work. You see he's my next door neighbour!!

Alan - Your suggestion that Jean seek a guide is kinda what this was all about. However for the record, just being a Dive Master does not qualify a person to lead dives to the windjammer. And I was not aware of diver deaths on this site.

Walt - you said "Lets be realistic as to everyone's certification level, and please understand they are NOT all equal." I could not agree more, unfortunately not everybody is willing to acknowledge their limitations.

Barry - I would not even begin to compare PADI and BSAC to CMAS. And, if you really want answers to your questions, I suggest you contact someone such as Walt that has the technical skills and training to provide you with the education and information.

Andy if you think you don't "rant" about PADI, I suggest you re-read the first portion of your last message. And, I suggest you talk to you neighbor when you see him next.

Hi evereryone

I think you must stay calm about my question, we are all divers and want stay alive; but like Barry, i think: "Scare tactics are not the motivator - safety and responsibility are.". When a wreck stay 200 feet underwater, all divers with sufficient certification level and experience CAN go down and enjoy it.

About the winjammer or any deep dive or strong current dive in any place,before wetting my "bijoux de famille", i talk with anyone who knows about particulars dangers of this place like professionnal divers, sailors, fishermans... And then, if i can prevent the potential danger, i go down into the water like a non-alcoholic person.! All divers who take care of his life may are like this. Otherwise....

Thanks to all again, I am happy to see you are all enthusiastic to dive in Bonaire and stay wisely. I think Ocean and reefs are so big for all divers: beginners to experts. I prefer deep dive, but i have fun with 30feet of water too.

I hope See you in Bonaire perhaps in mai 2002
Jean
Oo°(;){)

Jean,
Please excuse the baggage that appear in response to your message... For what its worth, Walt is a good friend and a good diver who has taught me much (yes everyone I still learn a thing or two). I think in linking up with him s what you were looking Having had active experience with CMAS I respect what you were saying and fully understand the difference between their levels and the US..


Glen..you raise some good points.. most American agencies/instrutors have little experience with the european ratings and training approaches. Having done some work for a standards committees I truely respect CMAS. Do you guys appreciate that some of the CMAS operations are the only ones who have expiring C-Cards ??? To compare CMAS with most American bases agencies is an insult to CMAS... but before everyone looks at get ropes and pithc forks out..please look the difference is mission and purposes.. CMAS is a club based approach and if you find their approach "recreational" then you found a softee.. I don't advocate the US agenices adopting such an approach and in fact such an approach is why US agencies found market in Europe.

as for the rest of the slaps, mud slinging.. ahh yes another day on Bonaire talk...you will have to excuse me as I get back in my fox hole.

Jason, was not aware CMAS cards expire. Now that is something I wholly support, too many divers show up that have not seen the open water in years, truly scarey!!

As to your "fox hole", I bet it is filled with either quarry or salt water and there are no bubbles coming to the surface.

Jean, sorry to get back to your question. Can't believe nobody has suggested Boca Bartol up in the park. It can be a very rough ingress/egress but there is a second ledge @ 140 the drops off in a beautiful wall with a cave or reentrant to the north. The image is a plan view from the van t Hof guide book, sorry about the resoultion but it may give you a feel for the contours.

Barry

The Windjammer is now a technical dive. I'm glad you now agree.

The reason to have an experienced Guide take you to the Jammer is for many reasons not just to "prevent an accident".

It is a long surface swim. You can spend a long time looking if you don't know where you are going. Not my idea of fun in 2 to 5 ft. waves. Even less fun when you are carrying 2 to 4 tanks.

If you don't know where to drop you will miss it and spend precious bottom time looking for it. As bottom time is limited by the gas you can carry and the Deco time you are willing accept it's nice to land right on target.

The experienced guide should have access to computer generated custom dive tables so you can plan the dive depending on the amount of risk you are willing to accept and what gasses and how much of each you are going to use. I build in huge safety cushions. No dive is risk free but I like to have as much cushion as is reasonably possible.

And many other reasons regarding safety issues.

You know you are right on the mark with your comments about letting people on boats or selling dive packages to anyone that is so out of shape they can't walk to the dive boat or dock without looking like they are having a heart attack. It does seem silly that we could exclude them from a dive course because of medical reasons but would never think of excluding them from diving for medical reasons. Ahh yes I forgot about the "pursuit of the Yankee Dollar" how silly of me.

Maybe those European diving clubs/Certifying Agency's have a good thing going with a Diving Medical exam once a year! It is very scary being around some of these divers that travel all over the world.


"I don't consider an island divemaster experienced because of the training he has received, but because of his experience diving the sites.
Yet, most businesses use them and 'tell' everyone they are experienced divemasters."

I am totally confused by the above statement is it not a little contradictory?

The pictures were taken by certified deep divers "Tri-mix certified" all of the divers in those pictures and the one taking them have lots of deep dives in their log books including over 150 dives on the Jammer if you add all the dives up from all of us. Yes I suppose that the picture may tempt some to want to see the Jammer first hand. Hopefully they will realize it is not your average dive by seeing all those tanks and will seek out the expertise of someone that does know how to do the dive safely. The tanks will scare off some I hope. Others it will encourage to take a technical course.

You have not been here for a while and don't know what it's like at the Jammer these days. I have seen as many as 13 vehicles there at one time. You won't believe what I have seen there lately!

Yes someone died there and several have been to the chamber. Not all bad as Mary makes good money assisting at the chamber. I just wish they wouldn't wait till the middle of the night to finally come out of denial and seek treatment.

Barry there are no stupid questions. My hands are totally free the sling tanks are hanging from my harness. The question as to help or not to help and or what help will be given is one that is dealt with before getting in the water by the team.

KNOWN, EASILY FOUND YES, BUT NOT SAFE. You can't believe the amount of traffic that the Jammer gets these days people are coming and going all day long. Most of these divers have no clue about staging tanks so "gee look I just found some treasure"!

Andy

You should bring software and cables to down load camera with. I might even suggest you e-mail me with all your needs in regards to down loading pic's and what you are bringing. So we can make sure everything will work.

Jean

I'm happy to hear that you are still looking forward to diving Bonaire and we mentally challenge divers have not put you off.

Kelly

Lighten up a little bit! You are starting to sound a little DIR.

"as for the rest of the slaps, mud slinging.. ahh yes another day on Bonaire talk...you will have to excuse me as I get back in my fox hole."

Jay

All I can say is duck. Save the watches it's too late for the booties.


Walt III

Walt,

"Lighten up a little bit! You are starting to sound a little DIR."

Opps, you are right sometimes I forget I am going to Bonaire, not the Florida panhandle.

...uummmm...'scuz me...what does DIR stand for? Is it like one of Cecil's Navy terms, in that I really DON"T want to know? Interesting and informative debate. Thanks all for the opinions and feedback.

Walt
Be happy ! I am still looking forward to diving Bonaire and divers have not put me off.
i will come...

Jean
Oo°(;){)

DIR- Do It Right
Born from the wkpp project-
cave diving configurations with rec.diving applications, some might say.

to take one of Barrys points up a notch:

If the buddy team concept is embraced by all US training agencies, why are not all "OW" divers trained to the level of rescue?

oh yes I know $.

Hey guys should I appologize for mentioned this dive to a guy who was looking for deep dives.. I really did not intend to start such a hugh debate over deep diving. I agree, it is easy enough to find, but I also agree it is not for MOST divers but as you noticed, I did not tell anyone how to find it.
P.S. should I bring up diving on the Andrea Doria.

Hazel, as defined by J.J. Jablonski, one of the "founders", DIR (Doing It Right) is a diving philosophy that promotes rational choices with respect to dive teams, dive preparation, and equipment configuration as a means of ensuring safety, efficiency and enjoyment.

You asked ;-)

Alan, as with Dave mentioning Boka Bartol, there is/was nothing wrong mentioning the site to someone looking for deep dives. The ensuring "discussions" were a carry over from earlier threads.

As to the "Doria", I will go out on a limb and say I think you are prefecting safe on mentioning that wreck. Even Walt does not have enough tanks to make that one from Bonaire. However, for the right fee he can teach you Ice Diving.

Last "slap" from me... my neighbour leant over the fence tonight Kelly. He asked if I'd thank you for the mail & said that Tuesday is good for him too.
Despite this apparent unprovoked attack on you, Kelly, I'd seriously like to add that I have the utmost respect for your skills both above & below water, which I am fully aware are vastly superior to mine. If the chance ever arose, I would be honoured for the opportunity to follow in your wake.
Walt, your mention of diving medicals just reminded me... it's a classic case of the detrimental effect PADI has had upon the BSAC. The club was founded in 1953 & has always insisted upon annual medicals for its members. Two months ago, in an attempt to remove a hurdle placed in the way of would be new members (that didn't exist for it's rival, PADI) they decided to do away with this annual check up. Soon there will be little to choose between the two organisations, but I fear it will generally involve a fall in standards rather than an improvement. Ah well, I guess we've all been fortunate to have seen the best years (both in diving & life in general, eh?). I fear it's all a slippery downward slope from here in.
Enough gloom! It's been a good day... looks like my new video housing handles & controls are going to be a success. Thanks for your help there Dave, but I reckon it's going to cost me dear!
Walt, I'll check out connections & cables, etc & e-mail you in the next day or so.

Andy, being a naturally caution (read paranoid and hostile) person I will avoid your neighbor at all costs.

As to my diving skills above and below water, they are what they are. I know far better divers (above and below the water) than I, and it is my pleasure to dive with and/or learn from them.

For myself, if I can assist (or save) one person though education or if necessary "scare tactics", I will.

Jean...I'll tell, but not here - email me.

ALL...hmmmm, read over my post - ballistic would be a mild term. Sorry - mabye it's because I don't have the opportunity to dive as much as I did. BT keeps me close, but it's still not the real enchilata.

I might add - I haven't taken anything personally, at least not in a conscious mental paranoid capacity... nor have I intentially tried to attack anyone. It's actually quite fun.

Walt knows I like a good debate or discusion, but Walt it would be better over a beer and standing watching the parade, yeah?

Barry

Wait a doggone minute here. Barry is sandbaggin good deep sites, like its some bag of anthrax or something.
I would think that most people with half a brain won't be induced to dive locations beyond their ability by reading something in here. If they do its a better world.

I can post my own maps from the south side Barry, yep its blackmail, tell us what you know or I'll spill the beans

thought I'd get some response from the industry crowd on the sad state of dive training.

I dunno Kelly...I try & build a few bridges, even give you some flattery. Is that really the best response you can come up with? Like everyone else & his dog seem to be saying to you......for Lords sake lighten up man!
Ah well, I guess it takes all sorts.

Dave...me, sandbag? Nahhhhh, didn't want to start another avalanche of expert advice that we all surely need it appears. So, how about baby steps:

CAUTION - YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER INTO VERY DEEP WATER AND ONLY ADVANCED TRAINING SKILLED DIVERS SHOULD MAKE THIS DIVE.

Jean and anyone else who qualifies:

Sargasum Triggerfish - what a beautiful fish, deep blue and black markings. It's shy and doesn't live in the 'live' reef area. It burrows, or lives in holes in the dead parts of the reef - in excess of 130 fsw - BEYOND RECREATIONAL DIVING LIMITS.

Divesites (anyplace) south of White Slave Huts (no further south than the next point), one can find this wonderful fish.

Just follow the reef down to about 130 feet where the reef ends...just beyond, you will begin to see remote sightings of the Sargasum Triggerfish. It is best to go down deep and then go parallel, sneaking up on them...cuz they will dart into their holes. Be patient and slow, they will come out. I have video within 1 meter, but that took some doing. The bubbles are what scares them - hint, hint. See Walt for this training

Now, if you follow the bottom at a safe depth, you will come to a second drop off....it is there that there are literally hundreds of Sargasum Triggers and they are less shy....I would put their depth at 160 plus, however, you are not on the bottom, but above that depth. The lighting is actually quite good.

Now, I again repeat: THIS IS NOT FOR ANY OLD DIVER, OR YOUNG DIVER...IT IS FOR THE TRAINED AND EXPERIENCED DEEP DIVER WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING......

Dave

Thank you for the image. it's perfect to feel what about you say.
Can you tell me what guide book you have utilised? How can i find and buy this book in Paris?

Jean
Oo°(;){)

Barry

I'll have to go take a look. Always looking for new deep sites.

CAUTION LOADED GUN, DO NOT SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE HEAD


Jean-"Guide to the Bonaire Marine Park" Tom van t Hof. Published by Stinapa/Orphan Publishing. No date, no isb number
I think it was published in '86.
Photos by Dee Scarr.

This is a great place and big enough that you really need to do a bunch of dives to see all of it. The way to max the bt is to surface swim the half mile of so to the wall and make a rapid decent to 160 with a dip to 180 toward the north.
The currents in the times I've done it were surge, with nothing at depth. The rollers tend to build here due to the boca, so the egress was always hard, 4 days out of 10 it seems to be too rough to get past the rollers. the waves break dadly close to the shore, which is steeply inclined rubble, pay close attention to your entry and exit, its the most dangerous part of this dive..

You may find this area of the island the most beautiful-if you like rock,blue foamy water and iguanas.


What ever happened to Dee Scarr?

Dave
Great! thank's for this and don't worry i will take care of my life...

walt and Barry
you are lucky men because you can go to dive this NOW.

AArrggg, time! go quickly to may 02.!

Jean...lost your email, can't mail you, so I'll do it here. Sorry, but I'm in Jakarta and are in worst shape than you...at least you are going to Bonaire soon.

Walt...Vista Blue or Atlantis are the two best sites according to my log book....157 to 187 - I went to the second drop off to get a closer look at the Sargasum Triggers.

Jean...there is a pylon (pipe) sticking in the bottom at about 130-140 at Witches Hut...this one is difficult because the risk is greater and it's harder to find. Straight in, follow the reef south (left facing the sea) for about 10 minutes (no stopping to gaze at the cute little critters) and then you want to look out to the deep. About 30 meters out or so you can see the top at 100 feet. There are sponges all around the pylon.

The pylon is sticking in the bottom (don't know the bottom depth, but the top is about 100-125. That's why it's really risky...deep after being in water for 10 minutes or so...

Story goes that a barge with pylons lost one and it was so heavy and dropped so fast, it stuck and is still stuck.

Maybe Walt can find it and give more precise directions...I've only done it 3 times with D. It's hard to find, dangerous, but neat to see.

NOT FOR THE INEXPERIENED DIVERS - ONLY QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED DIVERS SHOULD ATTEMPT THIS DIVE...IT IS DANGEROUS IF NOT PLANNED PROPERLY.

Barry

P.S. Dave - is this satisfying that taste for sand that I have been bagging?

Jean...(and you too Dave ...

This is a drift dive. La'Dania's Leap as a shore dive. Go straight down the slope and turn right. Most times the current is going your way (I DO NOT RECOMMEND TO DO IT IF THE CURRENT IS STRONG AGAINST YOU)...at about 150 feet plus you will find a very large notch with wire sponges in access of 3 meters, also other types of neat looking sponges. This notch was made during the last ice age, or maybe the one before that. I have seen a school of Tarpon in excess of 20 on two occasions.

It was also my first sighting of a Manta, except I was at 150 and he was at 10 - bummer, but it looked neat anyway

You really have to watch your depth...the clarity is so good you can be easily fooled.

When you ascend, follow the reef in the 10 meter range - air consumption is less, the obivious reasons for gassing off, and if there is a current against you, up there, there is no current, just surge maybe.

Continue until you see the large anchor in 10 meters, you are then about 3-5 minutes from the Karpata exit.

For those who don't dive deep, this is also a great drift dive, except you can outline the buttresses at about 55 feet and at 1500 psi (100 bar) go up to the 10 meter level....you can also just crosses the buttresses and get that cool feeling of flying over a valley .

Oh, Oh....look for turtles near the end of the dive in 3 meter waters....most times there are 2 or 3 there.

NOW - THIS IS NOT FOR THE INEXPERIENCED DIVERS. THERE IS NO GETTING OUT ONCE YOU JUMP IN...SO, ONCE YOU ARE IN, YOU ARE COMMITTED, SO YOU MUST KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.

I'm trying guys, I'm really really trying...yeah, very trying you are saying, right

Well, Dave...I showed you mine, you now have to show me yours... Oh, I have more, but I'll keep them bagged for awhile.

Jean...(and you too Dave ...

This is a drift dive. La'Dania's Leap as a shore dive. Go straight down the slope and turn right. Most times the current is going your way (I DO NOT RECOMMEND TO DO IT IF THE CURRENT IS STRONG AGAINST YOU)...at about 150 feet plus you will find a very large notch with wire sponges in access of 3 meters, also other types of neat looking sponges. This notch was made during the last ice age, or maybe the one before that. I have seen a school of Tarpon in excess of 20 on two occasions.

It was also my first sighting of a Manta, except I was at 150 and he was at 10 - bummer, but it looked neat anyway

You really have to watch your depth...the clarity is so good you can be easily fooled.

When you ascend, follow the reef in the 10 meter range - air consumption is less, the obivious reasons for gassing off, and if there is a current against you, up there, there is no current, just surge maybe.

Continue until you see the large anchor in 10 meters, you are then about 3-5 minutes from the Karpata exit.

For those who don't dive deep, this is also a great drift dive, except you can outline the buttresses at about 55 feet and at 1500 psi (100 bar) go up to the 10 meter level....you can also just crosses the buttresses and get that cool feeling of flying over a valley .

Oh, Oh....look for turtles near the end of the dive in 3 meter waters....most times there are 2 or 3 there.

NOW - THIS IS NOT FOR THE INEXPERIENCED DIVERS. THERE IS NO GETTING OUT ONCE YOU JUMP IN...SO, ONCE YOU ARE IN, YOU ARE COMMITTED, SO YOU MUST KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHAT HAS TO BE DONE.

I'm trying guys, I'm really really trying...yeah, very trying you are saying, right

Well, Dave...I showed you mine, you now have to show me yours... Oh, I have more, but I'll keep them bagged for awhile.

Looking through my Bonaire Marine park book and not getting into the "depth" of the conversation here...I will just add my 2cents worth....
Dives over 100 feet that the book recommends are:
In random order
1. Andrea 1....0 to 100 ft
2. Buddy's reef....10 to 115 ft
3. Boca Bartol north...130 ft...advanced
4. Playa Benge...10 to 135 intermediate...but may have been ravaged by Lenny
5.Playa Funchi...10 to 100 feet..all level experience
6.Slagbaai south...10 to 100 ft .intermediate
7.Bari.....30 to 130 feet...all levels
8.Hands off (klein)...20 to 100 ft...all levels
9.18 Palm ...10 to 90ft and worth it for the tarpon and garden eels
10.Bachelors beach...10 to 100 ft...all levels
11,Chez Hines....10 to 100 ft...all levels
12,Punt Vierkant....15 to 100 ft...all levels
13.Aquarias, and Larrys Lair...5 to 100 ft...all levels
14.Jeannies Glory...10 to 100 ft...all levels
15. The invisables...0 to 100 ft...all levels
16,White Slave...30 to 100 ft...intermediate
17,red Beryl...10 to 130 ft...intermediate
18,Atlantis...10 to 130 ft...intermediate
19.Vista Blue...10 to 130 ft..intermediate
20.Sweet Dreams....10 to 130 ft...intermediate
21, Southwest corner...10 to 100 ft..all levels
22.munks haven....0 to 110 ft...all levels
23,Salgbaai to wayaka...10 to 100ft...advanced
24 La Danias leap...20 to 110 ft..all levels
25,hilma hooker....60 to 100 ft...advanced
So as you see there are quite a few...deeper dive that can be done here...although I do not see the need to go that deep....most of the good stuff and color are up higher...but to each their own..


Dave love the new snapshot of the pooch...has he been into some floresent paint? or just trying to get the Andy designer wear of garanimals.

Meryl...what you say is ABSOLUTELY correct. Most of the good stuff is between 10 and 60 feet. Some of the best reef in the world are there.


Another point:

I, personally speaking, don't like the dives in the park. There is sooooo much Tridendendum that the corals have been killed off.

Now, that's the normal area of diving where most dive. My research has found that the TriD tends to become much more sparse on the outer boundaries of the the Boca's. The highest concentrations are at the bocas.

So, if you can, pick a side, go out to the drop off, drop down and go away from the mouth...you will find your best corals there.

As a matter of note: TriD begins about Oil Slick Leap and gets more prolific northward. It is especially abundant in the Park boca areas. It ranges from 140 feet to 6 feet, most abundant in the 50 to 30 foot range.

It has been nicknamed "Devil's Puke" cuz it plays hell with the reef and it looks like somebody barfed all over the reef with a gretyish/purplish ooky matty substance.

My theory of why(?) is that the spores can travel up to 400 meters laterally along the reef, before they drop, once a day. Because of the 'bounce' of surge off the cliffs, these small spores get pushed to the open sea and die, and where the openness of the boca with no bounce effect is present, the spores are allowed to settle and colonize on the reef.

This is scientifically unsupported - It's only a Barry Theory , but hmmmmm, I was doing suveys (for 6 years) with scientific protocols and probably am one of a few experts on TriD on Bonaire, so maybe it is scientific with no paper written and, oh yeah, no degree, duhhhh.

Walt...I was reading over your earlier post about the contradictary statement I wrote. I address this to clear up the statement, not to provoke wrath. I said:

I don't consider an island divemaster experienced because of the training he has received, but because of his experience diving the sites. Yet, most businesses use them and 'tell' everyone they are experienced divemasters.

I was referring to the posts that basically said, only training should be considered experience and not the actual diving experience in one or more specific sites.

We all assume that the dive operators, worldwide, have divemasters/guides that are properly trained, when in fact many are not, but their experience over their years of diving has given them that 'experienced' status. Can they save our lives in the event of an accident, I dunno, but they sure can find that seahorse or frogfish we want to see.

Having said that - Bonaire is one of the rare locations in the world where a dive Instructor is normally aboard and your safety is in excellent hands.

A PADI trained divemaster is trained in Rescue and deep diving effects (air) and that combined (operative word - combined) with proven experienced dive profiles is indeed an experienced 'guide' based on precedent.

Is that safe? Ha, is going underwater longer than 2 minutes with lungs and not gills safe? Hardly, but we do it intelligently with training and open minds - hopefully not with empty minds.

Barry, a PADI Dive Master is not "trained" in deep diving effects, keeping with this thread deep diving is to depths greater than 130. It was not until recently that PADI acknowledged the recreational aspect of technical (RecTec) or extended range diving.

As to Bonaire being a rare location because a dive instructor is normally aboard, that may provoke comments from other resorts (if they read out discussion board). I agree dive instructors, for the most part, operate the boats on Bonaire. However, as to safety, unless the instructor joins you on the dive and you stick to them tighter than a tank band, safety remains the responsiblity of the individual dive team.

Kelly...hahahahahahahah, thank you for one of the best belly laughs that I have had in years.

AS REFERENCE: Kelly wrote - Barry, a PADI Dive Master is not "trained" in deep diving effects, keeping with this thread deep diving is to depths greater than 130.

Are you so hung up on PADI training that you really think that physics ends at 130 feet? I presume that's Kelly's Law. Mr. PADI himself.

I actually had to go and review my physics cuz being 54 and a 60s boy, I dunno, maybe some brain cells did get really screwed up --- NOT!!!!!

Boyle's Law, Charles' Law, Dalton's Law and Henry's Law - not one of them stated that they don't work after 130 feet - Nope, don't even have to waste time looking that one up. That is great humor, for sure.

When you got trained as a PADI dive master, did you really stop thinking past 130 feet or did you just stop thinking all together?

Did PADI brainwash you to the point that you really think there's Dive Police down under and if you go past 60 feet without the proper training you will get fined; or if you go beyond 130 feet without the training you will die because Kelly's Law states that all other laws are null and void after 130 feet and you don't know what you are doing if PADI hasn't trained you?

Get off your horse and think about what you said....there are smart people out there, there are intelligent people out there and there are people that can go beyond the realm of PADI's examples and test questions, which are limited to 130 feet.

I knew all this stuff from high school physics, then college physics (Man, Prof Herbine would have a heart attack laughing at such a statement) and then had it again, but very limited in PADI open water.

Because PADI thinks everyone is stupid and wouldn't understand the material if they didn't pay more money to find out, I bought the book, "The Encyclopedia of Recreational (Recreational - don't let that word fool you, it doesn't apply to the physics) before I got Advanced OW trained - oppps, are there any Dive Police out there? I only learned what PADI should have taught me in the beginning.

I'm not knocking PADI (but I know you will come to their defense on how great they are and why they do what they do - it's not necessary, they are good, but limited; they are safe, but limited and for all the good liability reasons).

What I am knocking is people who use PADI to appear intelligent. It's an insult to our intelligence. But, maybe the people you have around you are at that level of intelligence that need to be reined in tightly and that's why you think the way you think.

Get off the horse, Kelly and you might be able to see the green grass and how fresh it smells - it clears the head and allows you to get away from PADI-ville and enter the real world.

Wow! Are there really smarter people out there or am I living in a dreamworld - hmmmm, maybe narced once too many times, could it be?!?

As far as the worldwide operators - well, the responsible diver should ask about the training and experience of the people. Not to put them down or find fault, but to know where one stands as far as support and safety.

And yes, ARE YOU RIGHT? - safety remains the responsiblity of the individual dive team (buddy)?...hahaha, well that's a whole nother thread ...ohhhh, the stories that could be told about buddies and safety. But for the most part, I guess you are right.

Kelly - if you need to pick at something, think nose or the other end next time and leave some things said just pass by without comment. I have a horse too, but I'm also clean at the two aforementioned places Relax.........

But I do enjoy your humour and banter...it's actually entertaining

Sorry folks, NOT sorry for this rant!

Dave...I need a good cave to hide in after this one. Kelly's gonna clobber me. Any NJ caves up in the DelH2OGap that I could get to?

Barry,,,I have the caves scoped out in the area in case of survival paranoia.....Indian Caverns in Pennsylvania....very nice...and there is suppose to be still hidden treasure there ...somewhere..... What do you think Dave?...not about the paranoia...the cave...

Meryl...is that up near the Pocono's area or out at the Western end? Are they deep caves? Do they have water in them? Maybe we can do some deep cave diving to bide the time away in our hiding.

Barry...they are west Penns. up near the Altoona area...yes they are deep and there is water in them...not sure how deep the water is I'll send a link in a moment...

www.indiancaverns.com/index.html
looks like a nice place...but have never been there...check out the map when your at the site

Barry...are you coming to the NJ/Penns area soon....???

Merly...as long as they aren't more than a 130 feet deep or 1000 feet high in the mountains we should be okay once we get cave diving certified.

Thanks for the link....

I don't have any intentions on coming back to the states until things settle down...I actually feel safer here in Jakarta - I can at least see the bast..d that hates me and want to do bodily harm to my exterior.

If I did come back, it would be at the other end of the state closer to my grandsons, daughters and friends.

But, I do like caverans and caves.

Jake...why are my posts doubling up? I assure everyone, it's not intentional.
Barry

Nevermind...I think it's at my server and I'm the only one getting it twice....false alarm.

Meryl...neat caverns. Near Penn State, my first school...I think I might have been in those caverns some 25 or 35 years ago, I think....

NO deep diving there...bummer.

Barry, from your latest ramble you obviously need to visit with Dave's neighbor on a professional level. As to your horse, it is clear which end I have been attempting to deal with. May I suggest you take your personal comments and know-it-all attitude and return to rec.scuba from whence you so obviously sprang. Your comments of late explain a great deal about the Sandwich Shop on Bonaire.

As to your cavern/cave training, I wish you well. Your "I can be taught nothing atitude" will serve you well. If you complete Intro to Cave, I might just extend an offer to visit Florida.

OBTW, rave on... I see no use in wasting bandwidth on you.

Kelly I agree,if you can imagine listening to this line of B... S... while waiting for a sandwich I understand why his Sandwich Factory went out of business.

Kelly,,,,I think you mean Andy's neighbor...not Dave's..... (your welcome Dave)
I really think we need to come AWAY from the keyboard....this is suppose to be lighthearted dive poop....it is starting to sound like JUST poop....Get a grip all.... maybe we just need a good soaking......maybe just a good head soaking will do...."Mr. Bubble gets you so clean your mother won't know ya!"...dating myself!

I'm glad I came in on the end of this conversation....MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN......

Anonymous...I would tend to listen to you more if you were not....Anonymous

Poor Jean...I feel bad for him that he started this thread....amazing what 30 feet can do....

"amazing what 30 feet can do.... "

Meryl it's a "man" thing..

As I said, Pavlov.

Well, I'd just like to say

Well I'd just like to say

Well, I'd just like to say

Now there's a thing....I can't seem to get past "Well I'd just like to say" before the message posts itself. I guess Jake must be applying the censor.
Ah well, I've clean forgotten what it was now anyway!

Well I'd just like to say.....that if you opened a Sandwich shop in Spitzbergen, Barry, I'd be prepared to take the five hour flight north to be your first customer! (always fancied a crack at ice diving, actually)
There, all good news. I remembered what it was & Jake must be out.
Ditto Meryl. Anony's are the sort of fairweather friends who'll smile to your face, then stab you in the back, eh?

Thank you Andy...I know Dave would be there with his pink card for his 13th free sandwich So, at least the three of us could have a nice talk - hmmmmm, I wonder what we would talk about? I know I would have to eliminate the ringing bell at the entrance door - just in case...one never knows.

I know the stabbing anon is for sure not the one who was nice to me in the other thread

Good news from me, too .

Andy...I'd just like to say I agree with you whole heartedly!...and Barry....I will most certainly be your second customer...(I may want a take out though!)

Hey, here's a suggestion, why don't we shoot this thread and put it out of it's misery? Now that said, when & where is the new Sandwich Shop opening?

Meryl (sorry about the Merly earlier )...such nice enthusiasm - Thank you...but, I think you could eat in with us, cuz the talking would be not just 'man' talk .

Actually, one of the things I miss the most about TSF was the interaction with the customers.

Andy...could you please give me directions to Spitzbergen? I have no clue where it is and if I'm to open this shop it would be good to have the location down pat before I ship equipment and my customers will need to know too.

Barry,,,,I didnt mean I didnt want to eat in. but if it is in Indonesia I don't know if I could handle the flight! As it is we are setting up the Morphine drip for the Bonaire flight....(I was a horrible flyer before and now "I" may need the air marshall!

Meryl...By way of Kennedy - Frankfurt,Germany - Singapore - Jakarta it takes about 26 hours with only 3 hours of airport time...

Maybe a new menu item could be the "Morphi Hoagie" - Relax with the Morphi, it's numbing, but tasty! So, maybe I could send you a dozen or so for the trip.

Susan's right. We should "shoot this thread" as she put it. I'm going to start a new one right now.....

Gee I go away for a couple of days and look at this... my my must be a couple of viruses..

I see why Anon stays anon...

I see Barry still trying to continue to defend the undefendable... Barry, as a-side.. I would agree that physics know no artifical limits.. but there is more to diving beyond traditional limits then theorey..., there is practical application and that comes either through experience where you learn through trial and error (error being chamber, injury and death) or by seeking and obtaining appropriate training from an appropriate instructor.(..BTW FYI (don't you love those initials)speaking of training a PADI DM leading dives beyond 130 is a clear violation of standards.. for what they are worth..),, not only have you managed to stir up (and for good reason)...the extended range community.. (please re-read walt's posting.. it was good and had lots of accurate stuff.. for all divers here the information on air consumption is something to take to heart when you continue your descent past 90ft) now you are taking on the cave, cavern andd apparently the food critics...not bad for one weekend...

Andy, like you said susan was right... let this thread hunt someone else... it is halloween

Jason...welcome back. Violations of standards? - PADI Dive Police don't go past 130 feet, guess I'm safe

BUT...I guess I have to watch out for Walt and Kelly...they might take the dive laws into their own hands - hmmmmmm, Vigilante Dive Police (VDP BTW FYI can also stand for Very Deep Places) T

NOW HERE'S THE BEST PART - I don't dive deep anymore, nor guide, nor would even think of guiding any deep dives (of course if one would choose to follow me when I see those beautiful Sargasum Triggers, wellllllll )

Yeah, I think we should let this thread die too. Nice try on the new name, Andy. I liked it. But, that doesn't mean the subject won't find new life elsewhere (hahahaha). I know Kelly won't let it alone.

Meryl...you better get trained in altitude effects before mixing enriched air and Morpi Hoagies...Enriched Hoagies, wow...another menu item.

However, before we kill this thread, we still have to hear from Dave - WHERE ARE YOU ROCKMAN? GETTING STONED SOMEWHERE? We need your 2 cents worth of gold bull(ion)

JEAN - You have created nothing that would not have popped up elsewhere. I hope you enjoy your diving on Bonaire. It is truely a wonderful place to dive and your experiences will bring you back, I'm sure.

May of 2002 is not that far - hang in there. It's also between the wet seasons, so maybe you will be able to do some East Coast dives - Boca Spelunk (only 92 feet in the sand) going both directions is an outstanding dive. You will definitely need a guide.

Check with Jake (hmmmm, dare I say, I guided him at this site?) and he should be able to put you in contact with Donna. Of course, she's just a divemaster with about 800-1000 dives on Bonaire, so maybe she can't guide you in rough entry /exit conditions - but, I'm sure she wouldn't mind if you followed her off the cliff with a giant stride into the depths of one of Bonaire's best East Coast divesites.

Oh, Kelly? Please, if you ever meet Donna, don't ever try to tell her what you told me - I'm easy ....she will tell you where you can stow that extra tank and would probably help you put it there . It never stopped her in IBM, it won't stop her with you.

Ease up and enjoy life, Kelly, and next time keep it impersonal. I directed it at you with fun in mind , but you hit a low blow with the business remark. I let it slide this time, but you get that personal again, even jokingly....welllll, I'll have to ring the bells and watch the saliva drip...

Whatever.....

Barry,

You and Donna have decidedly different demeanors, and likely this conversation would not have taken this direction had Donna been the commentator instead of you. I will refrain from some comments I'm sorely tempted to make about a number of your stances and statements above, as my comments would appear catty at best (even though they would be factual).

Kelly, next time you're down at the same time I'm home make sure to bring this up during our dinner - we'll have some fun ;-) (I think we mis-match in November, right?)

Jake

Jake...I had no problem with your opinion and your non-comments in your first paragraph.

As to your last paragraph - you would stoop that low as to 'talk', 'gossip' about me - have 'fun' at my expense? And then tell everyone that you are going to do so besides?

Not only is it immature, but it is a low as a man could get - I have lost all respect for you...and up to this time, I still have a lot of respect for Kelly - he stands in there with the verbal bashings just as I have, but if he engages in your little gossip fest....then he will be as low as you...and I would no longer have any respect for him as a man or person.

You may own this discussion group, but you just stepped over the line of ethics as a moderator and as a man.

I'm outta here.....

Barry....we will miss you...not

Barry,

Sorry you feel that way, but anything I would tell Kelly would be factual - I don't tend to gossip much (and when I do, I preface my comments with a statement to the effect that they are rumors I have heard, and should not be taken at face value), as you should know from our association of well over two years, much of which was as neighbors here on Bonaire.

Your childish response above indicates that you fear the facts coming out, not that I currently have any intention of posting them for public consumption. It's not that important to me to do that to anyone, nevermind it would be childish of me to post such information since any such post would be hurtful to others (yes, you included, but not only you).

I've yet to share anything about you with anyone who didn't already know you well and first comment to me about you, Barry.

Believe me, I've got sores on my tongue from having bitten it so much, but I consider Kelly a good friend whom I don't see often enough, and I feel that given the above arguments between you and him, and your "expert" positions (I take issue with a number of them for reasons I'd not going to publicly state - see above for why) that Kelly deserves a better personal understanding (assuming he hasn't been given this by others he knows on Bonaire).

Take care,

Jake

Jesus- I've noticed I've got alot more pent up anger/frustration since the attack.

some of you guys & gals feeling the same way? I hope that explains it.

Looks like it got way too personal.

shame on everybody. now, run four miles, say three hail marys, drink 10 bloody marys, shoot this thread and forget about it.

Hope to read more posts Barry

Pfffffff. And I recently made a comment about this group being above average, kind comments, etc. I think I have to revisit that!

Peter, I agree 1000% chhheeez

Walt.. your wrong time of reading/writing doesn't improve...

I have to really say that this forum has dropped into the realm of Rodale's SCUBADIVING.. with personal insults, rumour mongling and the like

The time is rapidly approaching for me to place this forum in the same folder as Rodales...

I have to say that I am totally disgusted

Here, here for the sanity in the last couple postings. Let's try to be nice while sharing different ways of doing things and different opinions.

Hey divers, thank's to you for sharing your prefered dives and specialy to Barry, Dave, Meryl, Kelly, walt and others - and Glen for Pavlovian minds...see you into the water.