|By Barry Baker on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 12:38 pm:|
Got this off of foxnews.com
|By Barry Baker on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 12:41 pm:|
Sorry, I did not see this same story on another posting
|By Dave Scott on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 1:49 pm:|
Oh man, that is real bad news. Most commercial boats/ships are insured by Lloyds. They have very strict criteria on seeking a designated "safe harbor" in the event of a Hurricane. It is not like these things sneak up on you. A huge surge was expected from this storm. Unless she had some mechanical problem, I can't see why they stayed put. This may turn out to be very preventable.
|By Cecil Berry on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 2:32 pm:|
I've been following this story all day. Where the dive boat was moored was suppose to be a "safe harbor", so much for that theory. Iris surprised everyone, it's track shifted South while it's intensity increased. I've heard there are no buildings left in Placencia. Just slightly North in Dangrega almost no damage, so I'm hoping the Blue Marlin and Glover's Reef was spared, way to early to tell. The initial reports are pretty sketchy. It would seem the Richmond, Va dive club was all but wiped out by Iris. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families.
|By Dave Scott on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 3:01 pm:|
|By Cecil Berry on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 4:47 pm:|
Dave, I'm just repeating what I've heard on the Belize (link) and Diver-to-Diver boards (link). There has been alot of discussion about this event. One of the things that was so strange is her sister boat was docked next to her and did not sustain any damage. I swear I read yesterday that Iris was going to hit North Belize, I can't get to where I read that as the Belize forum is down. Here's a link saying pretty much what I said, could be wrong and apparently it was not a safe harbor, link.
|By Carole Baker on Tuesday, October 9, 2001 - 5:47 pm:|
Cecil, thank you for posting the links. cb
|By Jason on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:02 am:|
|By Linda Richter - NetTech on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:15 am:|
The Richmond Dive Club web site has postings on the latest news from Belize about the accident. They have a list of people with their status. Tragically, 15 are confirmed dead with 2 missing, only 3 survivors. 10 other club members aboard the Aggressor boat are safe.
|By Jason on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:31 am:|
link is as follows:
|By Robert Deal on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:34 am:|
I posted this link above, at Dean's message under Tropical Storm Jerry. Follow-up story from today's Washington Post.
|By Barry Gassert on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 11:28 am:|
This is truly a sad day. I have a hard time sometimes accepting tragedy without analysis....I guess it's my mental protection mechanism. At my age I've seen enough from high school on and don't need to go mental at this stage of life. Sensitive might be a nice trait, but it plays hell with the mind.
|By Cecil Berry on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 11:59 am:|
Barry, it's normal for divers to read an incident report and Monday morning quarterback. So don't sweat the lack of sensitivity discussing this incident, we all feel for the families. It sounds like the people on this boat did not feel they were in any danger and most had gone to bed after dinner, here one of the survivor's story link. They were pretty much blind sidded. Here's a link to a photo of the sunk boat link, quite a terrible sight.
|By Jason on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 12:05 pm:|
Barry.. I understand what you are thinking..,, but couple of thoughts coming from a person who has full gear almost always on his boats (granted I think my off shore days are at an end),,
|By Dave Scott on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 12:08 pm:|
Barry-you beat me to it. Perhaps Jason is right about second guessing, perhaps not.
|By Cecil Berry on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 12:45 pm:|
One of the things I read today that was very interesting is that Iris was only 14 miles in diameter. Placencia was all but wiped out while Dangrega was not damaged at all. This was a very small very intense storm, it would appear that the very small shift South is what caught this boat. It also seems the Wave Dancer caught a fluke wave/conditions causing the accident. I have not been convinced the boat captain did anything wrong.
|By Jason on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 12:52 pm:|
|By Dave Scott on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:07 pm:|
well, we all have our opinions, I respect all of those here. Time may tell what really happened.
|By Cecil Berry on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:11 pm:|
Reuters is reporting that a tug boat may have rammed the Wave Dancer which would explain alot. Here's a link for more photos, warning very depressing Link
|By Glen Reem on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:29 pm:|
Several other vessels rode out the storm safely in the same place so the basic choice sounds proper. The reports that lines snapped under strain (from the vessel rising with surge--see Wayne Hasson's comment about A slacking her lines) could indicate slowness on the part of the crew and/or a very difficult decision on their part: if WD was upwind and/or upsurge from the pier then slacking the lines risks WD riding over the pier and having her back broken. One report (at least) talked to just about that. Many small boats tied up during storms are damaged that way, either on permanent docks or from coming down on the pilings supporting floating docks. Being upsurge/upwind is being between a rock and a hard place for the skipper. And the luck of the draw here with an erratic storm path. It would have been better to have everyone topside with PFD's, for conservative risk management. All this is why larger ships will go to sea in the face of a hurricane rather than stay in port: at sea they can maneuver w/o hard objects nearby. Or go to a hurricane anchorage as we did for my one hurricane.
|By Barry Gassert on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:42 pm:|
Jason...good points. I'm absolutely positively certain that my small mind would have said, as I donned my 'fad' BCD - Barry, do you really want to be horizontal on the surface? Guess I'll have to put that in my list of things of 'what not to do' in the event of emergency.
|By Kelly on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:48 pm:|
This thread is beginning to sound entirely too much like the Rodale's message board. As Jason said, the Master of the Wave Dancer had a decision to make, whether it was right or wrong we will NEVER know because we were not there and we did face his set of circumstances.
|By Barry Gassert on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:51 pm:|
Sorry forgot this: Jason and everyone else with TSF pink cards (wet or dry)...
|By Barry Baker on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 1:54 pm:|
When reading the report of the survivor from link above, I was astounded to here that after the boat "surged" a call came out to put on life preservers. Now I also don't want to second guess but I think I might have wanted to have mine on anyway. If I am ever in a similar situation in the future I believe that I will think back on this discussion. As one who almost never wears a seat belt, I probably would not have had my pfd on either.
|By Dave Scott on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 2:21 pm:|
Sorry Kelly, I can't see how this disrespects the dead. I do agree that none of us really know what we are talking about until the facts are in, if ever.
|By Dave Scott on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 2:57 pm:|
TSF pink card?
|By Jason on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 5:22 pm:|
|By Ellen Kinsler on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 6:02 pm:|
As a member of the Richmond Dive Club and personally knowing all of the divers that died, I can tell you that it is a tragedy. We do not know for a fact yet what happened and are awaiting the return of the passengers of the other boat (Belize Aggressor) and the 3 that survived the Wave Dancer accident. Rumors are flying and you can check the richmonddiveclub.com website for additional information as well as the news articles that are appearing in our local newspaper www.timesdispatch.com or feel free to e-mail me at email@example.com. All of your prayers are being heard. I am a silent webcam viewer, but a lover of Bonaire and look to our return with 12 divers in January. Thanks in advance for you kind thoughts.
|By Martin de Weger on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 6:12 pm:|
Ellen, I wish you and your fellow members will find the strength to overcome this terrible time. Try to help each other out in every possible way. Our thoughts are with you all.
|By Cecil Berry on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 6:18 pm:|
Ellen, I'm very sorry for your losses and my condolances and prayers go out to the families. On my way home from work I listened to a great story on NPR about this incident. Some of the highlights was an explanation of the diving community and how dependant divers are on one another. The other part was on your club president, he was quite a card and will be sorely missed. I loved the stories about his sense of humor, the one about stealing someone's fins underwater was to funny. I tried to find a link to the story but they just played it and it's not in their archives yet, I'll check later.
|By Carole Baker on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 6:29 pm:|
Ellen, please accept our deepest condolences on this loss of your friends and loved ones. This is such an unexpected tragedy. Please let us know if there is anything any of us on the BT board can do to help in any way. May you and the members of your Club find strength and solice within each other. Carole
|By Glen Reem on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 7:46 pm:|
Jason is correct about my 'topside' (i.e., outside) comment. After posting I realized I meant to say 'on an upper deck rather than below decks in a stateroom'. Inside with PFD but not vulnerable below. 'In between the devil (wind) and the deep blue sea.'
|By Cynde Lee on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 8:09 pm:|
Ellen, my thoughts are with you and those family's who have lost thier loved ones. It is just so tragic. If there is anything we can do, you can count on us.
|By Barry Gassert on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 10:42 pm:|
Ellen...I too am not good for expressing sadness. I normally look to the other side - the Ying and the Yang - sadness/goodness.
|By Meryl Virga on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 - 11:07 pm:|
Ellen...sorry for your loss and shocked at the story...living near the ocean for most of my life we know when to get out of the water.We may be stuborn enough to stay put at home,But with a storm of that magnitude approching I do not understand why people stayed on the boat..live aboard or not...I would think that even a hotel lobby or such would have been the recommendation of the dive charter. The surge is the worst part of the storm...that is what we have always been told. And that is an unpredictable event. A boat in a "safe harbor" to me is still no place to be in a catagory 4 Hurricane. My heart goes out to you and your friends.
|By Dave Scott on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 9:23 am:|
ok Jason, I don't come here to engage in flame wars. I have a very high regard for the USCG, hence a high degree of respect for Kelly's service and rank attained.
|By Jason on Thursday, October 11, 2001 - 11:11 am:|
|By PJ Baker on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 2:06 pm:|
In sad times, sometimes its good to tell an amusing story. About five years ago I was doing some dive research on an island owned by the Wildlife Conservation Society off southern Belize. It was a great island that one could walk the perimeter in about 20 minutes. On one side of the island was the lagoon and on the other side of the island was an incredible sloping reef to a wall about 150 yards off shore. Anyways, we were sharing the island with a few ichthyiologists from a college in New England. As a side project, the BBC was offering money for anyone that could videotape the spawning of the nassau groupers, as it has never been videotaped before. The spot where the big groupers were believed to congregate was at the "elbow" of the lagoon in pretty heavy currents. The spot was a couple of miles from the island and we only had a skiff, so it didn't look good. When one day, the WaveDancer anchored near the wall in front of the island. Jack, the head ichthyiologist, took the skiff out to the WaveDancer and told them of the spawning of the groupers. He convinced the divers on board (who, incidentally only had that afternoon before they headed back home) that this was not a sight to miss as few have ever seen the spawning. Of course, with everyone owning cameras they eagerly said yes lets go. What Jack failed to mention was that this was far from a guarantee that we would even find the groupers (thus, the award from the BBC). So Jack came back to get the rest of us researcher on the island (7 of us) and took us out to the boat. I asked him if he told them that we weren't even sure if we could find the groupers, he said he failed to mention that fact. On the way to the elbow, you could hear the excitement in the divers on the chance to see such a rare thing. After we traveled to the "elbow", Jack puts on a mask and snorkel and gets towed behind the boat looking for the groupers. After a while, the divers were becoming sceptical. Finally, Jack says he can't find the fish but we may as well get in here. The bad news is we had hoped to find hundreds of groupers and instead found heavy currents. The good news is that the area still contained 20 to 30 large groupers and dozens of lobsters. I was running the videotape and had some excellent footage but no spawning. As many of the divers were returning to the boat, I could hear a few choice words. I felt terribe, but I was merely a student and really couldn't have done anything about it. For about half the trip back we sat in isolation. However, we all know that divers are good folk and soon after were gathered around us offering us beer and laughing about the whole thing. Afterall, we all saw more groupers in one area than anyone of us had seen before. I always wanted to go back and travel on the WaveDancer...
|By Bill Sweeney on Friday, October 12, 2001 - 11:03 pm:|
There may be a discrepancy. The first message in this thread was a news story. It quoted Patricia Rose, spokeswoman for Peter Rose Diving in Miami, as saying, "Belize City was evacuated so we could not put the guests in a hotel. We were forced to keep them on the boat." I understand that to be from foxnews.com and also that it was breaking news, perhaps under stress.
|By Sarah on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:29 am:|
Dear Ellen, our deepest sympathies to all.
|By Glen Reem on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:55 am:|
One of the links given abova also had a similar comment on refusal to leave the boat.
|By Bill Sweeney on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 10:46 pm:|
|By Bill Sweeney on Saturday, October 13, 2001 - 11:25 pm:|
Some more information: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40557-2001Oct10.html
|By Ellen Kinsler on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 5:25 pm:|
For those of you that are interested, the folks were asked to leave the boat, but chose not to. Not out of negligence, but the survivors said the weather was not that rough. Some occassional rain and wind, but mainly calm due to where they were moored. They felt safe. The ropes on the mooring broke lose causing the Wave Dancer to slide into the Aggressor. Then one huge wave. It toppled the Wave Dancer over and in a few seconds, it was under water. It is amazing that anyone survived. The darkness and diesel fuel added to the inability for most to survive. By listening to the survivors, it sounded much like the wave that hit Bonaire several years ago. What you should know is that little was done by Belize to assist in the body recovery. Our own divers that were on the Aggressor, had to do the body recovery. It was a grusome scenerio: one that they will never forget. I would have thought that Peter Hughes would have made a concerted effort to send a chartered plane to get the survivors back to Richmond instead of making them wait days to get back on their own. To date, the bodies have still not returned to their families, although the memorial services have begun. The only fault, if there is any, is that nothing was done to help the survivors until they returned to Richmond. DAN was great and has been working with the Belizean Gov't to get the bodies back here. If you never thought you needed DAN, think again.
|By Cynde Lee on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 5:58 pm:|
Ellen, thank you for posting this. It is difficult to decipher what really happened by the reports. How horrible to have to do S&R yourself...to find your friends. It must just be devastating.
|By Josie on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 9:11 pm:|
Ellen, thank you for your posting. This is the type of thing I remember when I'm mad at my husband and I'm not going to talk to him again until he apologizes. Then, I realize I don't need an apology, give him a hug first (and then he generally apologises anyway!). The little things I can get upset about don't mean a hoot compared to those things that are really important. Thanks for your reminder.
|By Barry Gassert on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 9:55 pm:|
Ellen...thank you for your strength in telling us the complete story. That must have been very difficult.
|By Linda on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 1:40 am:|
Dear Ellen, My sympathies are with you, and all the families and friends. I read your report just before bed. It made me shake and brought tears to my eyes. I patted my dog, and went upstairs and kissed my sleeping daughter, son, and husband. Tomorrow, I will not take for granted my mother, family, and good friends. Thank you for sharing in your time of grief. Blessings to you and your family. Linda
|By Dave Scott on Wednesday, November 7, 2001 - 11:16 am:|
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