Not sure whether you folks have heard yet, but two aircraft have crashed into the World Trade Centre in New York, I understand it's a terrorist attack!! Don't know much more yet, but my partners head office is right there in the Trade Centre and we're trying to get further news.

And another into the Pentagon in Washington. These are spectacular and people have been killed but fortunately relatively little real harm is done to the US.

Physical harm, on a nationwide scale, yes. Mental harm (the goal of terrorism is terror, of course), is much much greater. Even here on Bonaire, people who have learned about the multiple terrorist attachs are in a shocked daze.

I'm just glad I live on Bonaire, which is near the bottom of likely world terrorist targets...

A very shook up Jake

They've evacuated the Prudential in Boston, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the 2 WTC towers have collapsed. People were jumping from the windows.

This is truly awful.

we will never be the same again. More death in the name of god, or allah or whatever.
I'm sick.

I don't think relatively little harm is going to end up being an acurate statement. Just think if the evecuations were not complete (which I'm sure they weren't) when the two towers collapsed. My guess is, is that the end harm will be greater than the attack on Pearl Harbor in WW2.

I think the end result will be a declaration of war, whether official and public or unofficial and secret.

Why can't we all just get along?

John, I agree with you. The US will feel compelled to retaliate massively, and the hatred will continue. I can't imagine the carnage when those towers collapsed. I don't know how long it takes to evacuate that many people. I don't think we'll get passed this for a long time.

It has to stop somewhere --- but where will that be. This country would take out another entire country to get who did this. God help us.

I am numb! I watched those two towers disappear with utter disbelief.

Hopefully, all governments will take a collective deep breath and ensure that this does not become a spiral.

The immediate consequences in social, political and economic disruption, world wide, could be extreme.

I have to force myself to breathe!

Bill Rathborne
London Ontario Canada

And here I sit in the middle of Muslim-ville. I can say that none of the local Jakarta TV stations are broadcasting this tragedy. I don't know if that is good or bad, but from what I know of these people, they will be horrified when they read the papers....most don't have cable TV and won't find out till morning.

It's quite scary and very disturbing sitting in a foreign country (Muslim, no less) watching my country be destroyed by radicals in the name of religion....

Harm?: Our financial district halted, maybe our economic system crippled for weeks, our hundreds of experts killed in the WTC collapse (God Bless all the souls lost), New York City closed indefinitely and being evacuated, all airports nationwide closed, the entire nation shutting down, our major military symbol - Pentagon - HIT, our government (Captial, White House, State and every federal building) shut down and evacuated - they had us running and have brought our nation to its knees, American Airlines used as a symbol of America used to destroy America....

The symbolism of all this is catestrophic. I for one consider it an act of war and not a terroristic act. I hope our government acts swiftly and accordingly.

I agree that this is far greater than Pearl, but hope we don't send troops to Kabal (sp?) and spill more American blood.

I would opt to send the Nola Gay twin and let Allah, Bin Laden and the Talibon know that we won't stand by any longer and watch Amerians die for his pleasure. (Jumping to conclusions about Allah, et.al., but...)

Am I outraged?...you betcha and scared for all of my fellow countrymen and women who no longer have that feeling of being safe. Yeah, terrorism sucks doesn't it. I'm shaking right next to you Jake.

I've said a prayer for all you and yours.

Unfortunately, Bill, from what I'm hearing on the radio in interviews with people here in Rochester, so many people are ready to hit back at anything or anyone. I agree, the consequences of this are potentially terrifying. My sister has been trying to reach me from England (that London), and all the phone lines seem to be busy. She got me on Messenger while I was at BT. They are in shock there too.

God help us.

Josie,

The US may 'feel compelled to retaliate massively' but we will not do that. Not our way. We will work to bring the responsible people to justice as we have for other attacks but we will not massively retaliate against those not directly involved.

We will 'get past this', not unchanged, but get past it. This carnage is large in our quiet everyday lives but minor compared to truely large natural disasters or the destruction of a war.

"Debt of Honor" by Tom Clancy 1994
I thought it was a far fetched plot-a JAL 747 takes out congress and the president, but far fetched plots are what I want to read stranded in airports.
This was a well known potential tactic.

How the hell did they pull this off?

The response, I hope will be the same as in the referenced work of fiction. a very covert (highly illegal) surgical response, in fact it has to be.
Thing that bugs me, you wipe out one religious fanatic and several more move into that position, like smashing a drop of mercury.
Time for a new era of U.S. isolation.
To hell with the middle east.BOTH SIDES
Sorry folks, but I'm sick and enraged.
I'm going to post more sunsets tomorrow, and continue with attempts at humor, if we don't THEY win.

Dave, you're so right about more popping up, but something has to be done....Hatch used the "B" word, too. He was mad.

Religion is strange. I watch them kill people just because they are Christians here...and it's their own people, not just Chinese and Westerners....

My biggest shock here was when I was teaching my class of 7 and 8 year olds last year and we were studying 'good' and 'bad'......when shown a picture of Santa Claus every kid wrote BAD.....now go figure....and these were nice kids....

I just got a notice that the Embassy has been closed here....high alert, but no direct threats so far.

Funny thing...I feel safer here than there.

Seeing the rejoicing Palestinians in the streets of the Gaza Strip (esp. including children ) was pretty horrifying to watch.

Dave,

Tom Clancy was interviewed on CNN this morning, because of the book (which was excellent, by the way, and I enjoyed its sequel).

Anyhow, here's a tidbit from ALM that just came in:

---------------------------------
September 11, 2001 In connection with the present serious situation in the U.S.A. after the attacks on American carriers, the U.S. Government has closed all U.S. airports. Consequently the Air ALM aircraft, which was on its way to Miami, has been ordered by our operations to reroute to Port-au-Prince in Haiti. This flight will now return to Curaçao. All passengers on this flight will return to Curaçao and Air ALM will make sure that they can return to their original destination. Air ALM will not operate any flights into the U.S. as long as the crisis situation continues in that country. Only after American authorities gave the authorize operations, Air ALM will start up its flights to Miami and announce these to the general public. Air ALM was also forced to cancel its flight to and from Sint Maarten today, due to the present situation in the U.S.

----------------------------------

My uncle was driving in Kentucky today when he heard about the attacks, and the airports being closed. He finally got through to the rental car company which told him to just keep the car, drive it to where he needed to be (New Hampshire), and then drop it off when he got there (for no additional charge). Nice to see that some companies are putting commercial gain aside to help people in need.

Meanwhile, I hear from my brother that my Dad was supposed to be in Toronto yesterday, and Las Vegas tomorrow, but I have no idea where in between. Unless he's already in Vegas, he and countless millions will be stranded. Sigh.

At least I've got my kids with me, and have spoken to Linda on the phone (she's in New Hampshire) several times today.

Sorry for the rambling...

Jake

Jake, how is Linda doing? Has she already had her surgery, or when will that be?

Thanks for note about your uncle. It is good to hear about how nice people/companies can be when the chips are down.

Jake, thanks for the ALM update. I was wondering about the international flights to the island. My mother called me this AM as she wasn't sure when we were flying back to LAX, and not sure of the Airline. I hope Linda's surgery went well, and I am sure you both wish you were together at this point. It is very very upsetting and frightening. Give Yana, Bas, Blijke, Goldie, and Grendel a HUGE hug and kiss for me. Expecially Yana and Bas. You have two very special children (I am sure you already know that), but they are truley gems...

Hey Jake,
Didn't see clancy as I'm the only person in the U.S. that refuses to get cable TV. I've read most of his stuff (maybe too much), went to a pile of dogeared paperbacks to see when it was written,'94, Pretty sure I read it in '95.
Going through the basket of books we keep in the guest bedroom and I came across an earlier work of his "Sum of all Fears" and a chill went down my spine. Is that next?
Anyway, I look(way) back to my earlier rants about Bonaire, and of course feel like a real jerk.

Thanks to you for providing this site and forums.
Give your kids a hug for me, look forward to meeting you in person...soon. My self imposed boycott is over.

Dave

Dave,

Didn't see Clancy - just heard him (phone interview). And don't feel like a jerk - everything is relative to one's own perceptions.

For the rest, Linda's surgery was scheduled for Thursday - not sure what today's events will do to that date - thanks for thinking of her. She had the tough luck this morning of finding out that a power surge outside her mom's house knocked out the AC 120V -> AC 9V power supplies for the Linksys cable modem router and wireless ethernet access point, so she can't get out on her notebook until replacement transformers/power supplies can be found (not likely for the next day or two) - but she does have access to HotMail via her mom's computer.

Kids have been hugged repeatedly, and dogs have been ruffled a lot (and both will continue in volume for some time to come). Just popped on-line to see how everyone was doing...

Jake

Our best wishes are with all that are touched by this terrible tragedy. Give all loved ones an extra hug and kiss today.

Jake, if your father is still in Toronto, (or anybody else's family) more than 30,000 Torontonians have volunteered to provide rooms for travellers stuck here.(some flights have been routed to our eastern provinces) All elective surgeries have been cancelled in case any traveller here, or victims who can be brought from New York, requires hospital care. Blood donors are lined up. If anybody is trying to reach someone, if you know where they are supposed to be in Toronto, post here, or e mail me and I will try to contact them for you. God keep you all. Kerri

Jake, it's OK to ramble...that is what a lot of us are doing right now. Hope all is well with Linda and that you and the kids just love each other to pieces in the meantime. Now, more than ever, Joe and I realize how strong our desire to live on Bonaire is....Carole

Kerri Mango what a wonderful outpour of love and compasion Toronto has shown. Nice to know that those North of us are so wonderful and kind. If only those that were responsible for todays terrorism shared the same love for mankind...

There should be no god..only good.. Cause if a different belief in gods can do this...none of them should be worth it..or want to be worth it....maybe it was a misprenunciation from the beginning..who knows...As for the 3 hijackings..how does that happen now...I know I'm frisked when I go to the airport!...and I think I qualify as a Low security risk....

Kerri,

Thanks for the offer. I sadly have no idea where my Dad was staying in Toronto - he's not been particularly communicative of late for a variety of reasons.

Thanks again for letting us know how all the folks in Toronto are pitching in to help others. Very heartwarming (and it's literally bringing tears to my eyes). I can't recall when I've last been this weepy eyed - good day for it, though.

Jake

No thanks necessary. We know you'd do the same for us. If there is anything, let me know. Kerri

All, I am going to ramble a little bit.. I see the discussion of restraint and the like... I also saw clips covering discussion of the religious jihads that several of the groups have called against the US.. no not the government.. its people.. the innocents thw ere walking on the street.. the innocents on the airplanes.. teh child sleeping in the car as I drove home today.. for several years we, in the US have ignored that people in arms have called for all of our deaths.. Sorry Glenn.. we are not talking about "justice" we are talking war.. I pride my self in being a liberal and a degress of a pacifist.. NO ONE IS SAFE IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD AS LONG AS ANY COUNTRY OR AREA HARBORS TERROISTS.. To hell with both sides in the middle east.. look at the feeds again.. who was dancing in the streets??? who was declaring days of mourning..

sorry kids.. The "bringing right people to justice" worked sooooooo well with that PAN AM 103..there are people ough there who have already declared open war on the US..


Sorry to enter such thoughts on this forum.. I wasn't the first and actually feel bad about doing it as I have always used my words to try to help Bonaire.. but we all, or maybe only those of us in the US, must think of wht this means to us... Tomorrow trying to schedule visit for blood mobile.. anyone of you that ate in DC and NY area. I would urge you do the same..

good luck to all..

Justice is only possible when all sides of the equation are populated by law-biding citizens. When you have this kind of terrorist action, it is called chaos. Sometimes the lawful thing to do in dealing with chaotic evil behavior is to summarily remove the proponents of chaos.

I ask anyone, "What God of Good or Law, or any combination of those, condones such a Chaotic Evil act?"

The answer is: none. Therfore, there are two possible conclusions:
1. These people worship a Chaotic Evil god.
2. These people are not following a god, but acting on their own, evil agenda.

Any other Dungeons & Dragons game masters out their understand my point?

John,

As a former D&D addict, I'd lean more to this being a lawful evil thing - CE is pure anarchy, whereas this was planned, making it more LE.

Still trying to cope...

Jake

Been sitting here reading posts on this board and others trying to decide in my own mind what would be right or wrong. Who really knows? I do know that "surgical stikes and assinations" can work and have worked on many occassions, more than most people are aware of. However, as successful as these missions have been in the past, this terrible tragedy still happened. While I agree we can't just go in with guns blazing at the present time, we don't even know for sure who the mastermind was, when the investigation is complete and the people (and I use that term loosely), organizations and yes, even countries that had any connection with or provided support to this enemy of all civil law abiding people all over the world should be erradicated from the face of this planet.

To use an analogy, think of when a starfish looses an arm, another one will grow back in its place, it looses another one, another one will grow back in its place and so on and so on. Not until the entire oranism is destroyed will the arms not grow back.

While I do not live in the US, I am PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. My sympathy goes out to the families and survivors of all those who lost their dreams, aspirations, hopes and desires and even their lives in yesterdays carnage. Being an ex-firefighter/paramedic, I especially want to offer my heartfelt sympathy to the families of the many firefighters, paramedics, police officers and other rescue workers who lost their lives trying to save others. To those of us left behind to carry on, KEEP THE FAITH AND GOD BLESS AMERICA AND HER ALLIES.

Jake, sorry but I had to ramble a little bit too.

No problem Jack. I fully agree with your ramblings, and will no doubt continue my own ramblings (I'm finding that my phone conversations today aren't very coherent - go figure).

Jake

Hi all, from Michigan. The last two days have been absolute hell. Just a couple of things that maybe will help all of us cope. I'm a college counselor, who has been trained in crisis reaction. All the feelings (anger, confusion, inability to focus, sadness, helplessness, crying) are normal and expected at a time like this. I feel right now a very low threshold to cope with students, and am having a hard time thinking about anything but the continuing developments. Be aware that a wide variety of feelings will continue to happen, and remember that they are valid and understandable. Do what you need to do to take care of yourself and your loved ones. And make sure you talk to someone if you feel the need to. Jake, the "rambling" you describe I've also experienced. I felt a real need to call people yesterday and talk. I think it helps us know that we're not alone in how we're reacting.

Hi Mary,

Good to hear from you.

I had a friend over yesterday to talk to for a bit and that helped somewhat. However, still can't come to grips with all the emotions I'm going through. I think I'm going to try a brain dump into Word and see if maybe putting my thoughts on paper helps me get a handle on things.

Jake

Jake, that's an EXCELLENT idea. Sometimes the act of writing helps get things sorted out. What you need to understand, though, is that the confusion will probably last awhile. It's time that you need now. E-mail me if you need or want to. Mary

Jack, a little more rambling then I quit..
I like your analogy of the star fish...It IS time to deal with the whole creature..This is not a time to apply american justice principles to people who are trying to destroy that very system. We can not wait for proof positive..take the terriosts groups out.. if you get the wrong one ooopsss.. keep trying until we get it right.. I am not saying take out everyone who hates the US.. there is nothing wrong with hating us.. its their right.. but those of have said that they are at war with US.. ok its time to show them what WAR means.. Luckily that was not my day to go to meetings in the pentagon... It is time for us to count who our friends are and who are enemies. It took Pearl Harbor to wake the people up.. I only hope that we wake up this time...

As far as DC goes.. pentagon is still burning... the plane apparently hit first on the heliport and tben bounced into the building.. The pentagon is actual five pentagons.. it penetrated three.. but not into court yard... the word has been there are no further survivors..and they are having a hard time figuring out where everyone is..... I work in another DOD building which is basically an armed camp. Took me 1 1/2 to go the 2 miles from the interstate to the building..

Jake:

Yes, I see you point LE is most likely the case.

Regardless, I hope the WORLD comes together to identify what a terrorist is, what the consequenses are for being one or being involved with one, and that there will always be swift coordinated efforts to remove them.

Without large scale support, there will always be pockets below the radar screen that terroists can hide in.

This is what I want to see in one year.



along with Osama going through his final appeals process.

I want to see it maybe a few stories taller Cecil,
as to trash bin, I wish he will see this

I know,not nice, but makes me feel better.

Thank you, Cecil. I was looking for a picture of the skyline to share with my students. They are incredibly worried that they may be in danger, here on the prairie, thirty miles from town. I assurred them that Casper is too small to be a target. The World Trade Center held more people than our entire town.

It is difficult for children to comprehend what has happened. Parents can help, but if the parents panic, so do the kids. Most of my students watched the news with their parents last night. One was not allowed to watch the news. She had many questions, some of which I could not answer.

Unfortunately, another of my students is missing - her mother and stepfather escaped to something they call "the bunker." I am very worried about the mental state of that poor child. She must be terrified. All the fear and anger we feel should not be passed to small children. She is nine years old, same as Annie's Maggie. I hugged the others this morning. Any tips you all send my way to help alleiviate their fears would be appreciated.

Dave one of the funny thoughts for the day; Someone pointed out to me that it was against an existing treaty to use a nuke. I pointed out it was against a treaty to test a nuke, this is not a test.

I'm not realy advocating using a nuke, but like Dave it does feel good. On the other hand, I'm willing to bet that the 101 Airborne will soon be on the ground in Afghanistan.

Hazel, I keep saying and really beleive that the best thing all of us can do, is get back to normalcy as quickly and effortlessly as possible. Anything less than this, the terrorists win. The children and all of us need to be reassured that we are safe, and the people that did this are a very small minority.

Hazel,

I explained what was going on to Yana and Bas, and why I was/am so upset, and after some intense questions (focusing mainly around the possible motives of the terrorists, and around my having been in the WTC dozens of time in the last year and a half) they seemed to have a reasonable grasp of the situation and were quite supportive - which is good, I needed the hugs. While they watched the news with me for a while, I did distract them when the discussion of people flinging themselves from the top of the building came up.

Cecil - I think a Judge Roy Bean solution with bin Laden would be more appropriate than a typically protracted U.S. trial. Isn't the appropriate term which should be applied here be "necessary discretion"?

Jake

Cecil,
In my opinion, have studied the Afgans and their wars for a trimester at a certain school in Newport RI, The worse thing we can do is put ground troops in.. The Brits and Russians both tried and failed...I hate to see what this will come to.. but I truely believe we should do what ever needs to be done to deal with terrorists and those who harbor terrorists...people should realize if they herbor terrorists they will be dealt with in the same manner .. if it means cleaning out the old bomb closest so be itcapyt

I don't think it's a good idea to put ground troops in (yet).. How can we be sure that our target is still there? The word "backfire" comes to mind.. This is a very hard time for all of us.. the last thing we need right now is another western intrusion in Afghan.

It's hard for me to imagine how we could do anything to Afghanistan (specifically, of course, the Taliban) that wouldn't further devastate the majority of the population who are innocent, powerless and terribly, terribly victimized already. If we do that, we're no better than those who visited this dreadful tragedy on us.

I agree a "surgical strike" may be what we have to do, but we can't just bomb/invade/kill innocents, or we're as barbaric as those we condemn. There HAS to be a better way, and I hope to God we find it.

Of course, we're all assuming that it's Osama Bin Laden's group, but we must be certain. Maybe it's Saddam, or Kadhafi? At this point we don't know. But, I know we'll find out, and when we're sure, the perpetrators (damn them to hell) will find out just how determined America and Americans truly are.

I am SO VERY grateful to have this forum, and appreciate everyone's comments and feelings. Our ramblings help us when we do it, and it's helped me to see others' ramblings. I've also felt a tremendous need to communicate with others. I feel love, compassion and caring here, and we need that right now, along with our strength and determination.

I agree, the best thing we can do is re-build and show we can't be beaten down. Right will prevail. As an English-born who's a US citizen and has lived here for 33+ years, I love this country and its people, warts and all. I know we're not perfect, are often self-centered and materialistic, but at heart we're good folks.

Thanks to you all for being here.
"God Bless America, my Home Sweet Home"

Josie

Hazel...I think your students are very lucky to have you with them. I wish I had had someone like you.

Like most of us, I still remember the 'air raid' drills, first getting under our desks, then walking single file down to the basement shelter during the drills. All we saw was groups by grades standing next to the high stacks of food, blankets, water, etc.

Nobody humanized it for us - not my teachers nor my parents.

Until this day, that experience still flashes everytime I see the symbol for Nukes and Emergency shelters....

I can't imagine what your class must feel, and will continue to feel by watching this on TV....but, your sensitivity will impact their future for the best. Stay close to them.......

Jason,

Was that certain school in Newport by chance a small college on an island?? Spent time at one summers in a reserved status.

Afganistan certainly is a deep hole in the ground into which to throw people and materiel. Afraid we would be the third to fail in the last few hundred years. The Brits at least had the sense not try to take it all--just nibbled around the edges, keeping them inside the borders, mostly. Like the tactics Kipling describes in his Afghan stories.

Haven't heard a couple of things in all the TV flood of words: Sadam Hussein and the possibility that the hijacker pilots were trained pilots, perhaps even airline pilots familiar with 757/767. Arab countries have national airlines and air forces. Could have found willing trained pilots, even w/o country/airline knowing. They would make good team leaders, too. Airline pilots I have seen carry the manuals for their aircraft into the cockpit. These guys could not do that so would leave in rental car?? Didn't matter to them if found later!!! And Saddam and his people have the sophistication to do this. Perhaps through bin Laden's cells. Be interesting to see how it plays out.

I'm afraid there may be no other way to get him. As much as I hate the thought of US troops on the ground in Afghanistan, cruise missles, smart bombs, stealth aircraft, carpet bombing and even nukes will not get him in that hell hole. We are talking thosands of square miles of lunar landscape with mountains, how do you kill one man with a machine gun hidden under a rock?

Ground troops, looking under every rock.

All this will happen if it turns out Osama did it. As Jack Chalk pointed out in another thread, the American wrath is a terrible thing to unleash. As far as the people of Afghanistan, as long as they stay out of our way, we hopefully can mimimize their losses. As far as can we win, hard saying, but that's how I'd bet.

The other aspect that has not been talked about very much yet is the economic impact. The number of records stored in those collapsed buildings is going to be staggering. Hundreds of billions of dollars are at stake, more than a few stock brokereges do not exist anymore. I do have hopes that most of these records are duplicated off-site. We'll see when the markets reopen.

A little negative, sorry.

don't know where to post this mesg.
Everyone in our immediate family is accounted for on all sides, thank god! they are back in nyc at the wtc helping there. Terrible, terrible thing that has happened, they are first hand witnesses, "only" 2 of our friends are unaccounted for, but at least 200 of fireman and 100 police are still missing. Wish this nightmare would be over soon, thinking of the wonderful times in the jacuzzie on the roof in Bonaire!! who would have thought such a herendous deed!!

My prayers are with all families going through all these long long hours.
It's normal to jump to a lot of reaction but just catch yourself for a moment and ask yourself who is Osama Bin Laden......think for a moment ...look it up on the internet....
It's time that America should start looking at their policy and not first at their security.
If you don't get what i am writing than maybe the name Noriega will pop a light in your way of thinking.
It's a terrible act and we must not make any room anymore for such acts.
My strongest feelings with all americans and GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Lorraine, I'm so pleased to hear that your family is safe. I hope your friends show up soon.. We too are still eagerly awaiting news.

I'd also like to point out that there have been hundreds of Britons lost in NY, God bless their families and loved ones too.

Cecil.
Yes matter of fact it was.. I went through the senior school there...
Couple of thoughts/rambling.. and these are not pleasant.. It my opinion it is time to bring this all (organized terrorism) to a stop. The concept of innocents must be reexamined... It is time to go after not only the terorists but those who harbor them.. If we get the wrong group the first timeout... oopss... try to do better the second time, or the third time.. each
effort is a step in the overall goal... if there are people who live in a country that allow a government to exist that allows terrorism.. well I question the true degree of their innocence especially when compared to the hundreds if not thousands of non-americans who died as a result of the attack..they were not part of the great satan.. In addition to the Brits, how about the French, Aussies, even Arabs that died in these actions?? . Is there anyone more innocent then the 11 year old who died on the hijacked flights?? A lot of the potential innocents are the ones you have seen on TV wishing death upon all americans... This is a war.. most of us did not live through the horror of WWII.. But did not untold innocents die in Europe to eradicate the evil there?? Are their not wounds still to be seen through Europe from this effort?? This is war... I can not come back to that point enough.. Restraint in this case in my mind will be shown if the US chooses not to use ALL of its weapons... reference was made to the test ban treaty. a bit of trivia, the US is the only country that has not sworn off the use of 1st strike weapons. The world has stood by as various other cuntries, including Kenya, Great Britian, and Israel, to name a few, have bleed from terrorists weapons..... Restraint has been preached against taking this out against the true believers of Islam... OK.I agree but I would not attack them for their beliefs but for their actions. It is now a question of what side they take in the upcoming battles.... I am beginning to see this in black and white (Cecil which ties into some of the those interesting courses) either you come out against terrorism and through your support to its eradication you become part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.. war is not fought in grey shades..it is fought with overwhelming force until clear objectives are achieved... we don't have to know which terrorist cell it was... let all of our countries
join together and eradicate ALL TERRORISTS CELLS... so that none of us or our families ever have to live through this again...

sorry for the ramblings...

Here's a couple of very powerfull editorial cartoons about this awful events. Link 1 Link 2. Warning these will bring tears to your eyes.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of the towers being reconstructed...I wouldnt want to work in the new ones...it would look too ominous to me after seeing what just happened...Although being raised in NY I will greatly miss the view.

A few more ramblings;

Why the towers should be rebuilt? Before Tuesday to us, they were a couple of rather large office buildings, to our enemies they were a symbol of corporate America. The new ones could be a symbol to us of what we stand for, our unity and our willpower. What more fitting memorial to the fallen from Tuesday? I should point out it is a New York decision, Sep, your alot closer than I your call.

On getting terrorist cells, that is a very slippery slope. What be terrorist cell, what be freedom fighter, what be innocent village the terrorists just stole food from and where do we cross the line and be just as bad as what we are fighting? It's also important to remember that our founding fathers were terrorists (although they did not target innocents). Don't get me wrong, I want that low life as much as anyone, but I just want him and his gang and as few others as possible. Trying to kill every terrorist cell is like cutting the head off a hydra.

I think there are two basic categories of "terrorists":

1) Rebels (people fighting within/for a country against the default authority in an attempt to gain a superior position (e.g. increased autonomy, a voice in how things run, a desire for equal rights, etc.) to promote some particular philosophy. Some of their techniques may involve random acts of violence, executions, and other distasteful act. Our country's found fathers qualify as rebels, and under my definition, so do people like the kurds in Iraq, and the Palestinians (to a degree). It's an interesting thought and label that anyone who opposes, with violent action (justified or not), the existing authorities in a country is a rebel for as long as they are in the minority and/or losing. Example: Chavez in Venezuela was a rebel when he attempted a government coup some years ago. Now he's the elected president, and all of his fellow rebels are now respected (well, maybe) supporters of the state.

2) True Terrorists. These may or may not also be the aforementioned rebels, but instead of fighting for/in a country, their aim is a blend of anarchy and terror, because they can. There are no perceivable goals in terms of achieving the sorts of ends that typical rebels want to achieve. Witness the PLO's attacks in Munich in 1972, Libya's in the Pan Am 103 bombing, and Black Tuesday, as some examples.

More of my ramblings...

Jake

Jake,
Surprise, surprise once again I find myself once again in disagreement with you...I see the point that you are trying to make in your distinctions. those who win wars get to the write the history.. so people who have done dis-tasteful acts off get passed on as patroits.. In your distinction of "rebels".. I can not classify ANYONE who strikes out at a purely civilian target as a "rebel".. especially in time of undeclared war. granted the fundamentalists have declared a Jihad (religious war) against the US. but even in those cases there are limits as shown in the various war crimes....In war there is collateral damage.. the nuclear attacks and fire bombings in WWII showed how extensive collateral damage can be and the case could be made that had the allies lost the war there would have been some interesting war crime trials.. The pentagon was in fact a legitimate target for a war... I remain a legimate target by nature of employment in a war. the people in the world trade center are not, were not and can not be ever conceived as legitimate targets.. To the best of my limited knowledge the Kurds in IRAQ have never target civilian targets. What credibility that the Palestinians may have had was lost a long time ago after events such as the Disco bombing, the Pizza palor bombing, the bus bombings, the attacks on schools... Look at the number of coups that occur world wide where civilian business continued around the on-going military actions against military targets.. People who target innocent civilians are nothing but terrorists.. this conduct, if ever, in not acceptable in a civilized world and needs to be eradicated, along with its practioners, and the countries that harbour or support them such people. It is incumbent for the people of those countries who have been engaged in such acts to take action to stop such support.. that is the best way for them to avoid the collateral damage of the upcoming war. What has happened has not given the US an excuse to target purely civilian targets as retialatory actions for the WTC, but in executing this war, it is regretable, but collateral damage will occur.. I encourage all of you who are not americans to urge your governments to lend their total support to this upcoming effort.. with that support comes the right to help moderate the upcoming response.. we all must band together to make the world safe for people of all faiths, color and creeds...who have the morality to live in a society as civilized individuals..
again I apologize for the rambling.. I would much rather be sharing my photos from last week but they are so so so insignificant at this juncture..

Jason,

This may surprise you, but I mostly agree with you :-)

BTW, the term "rebels" was used only to distinguish between types of terrorists.

There's a linguistic semi-parallel for the term "hacker", which used to mean something like "someone who enjoys figuring out how to make computers do interesting things, which may involve adapting or modifying software and operating systems", but has sadly evolved to "a criminal who attacks computer systems for personal gain or too wreak havoc".

That's not to say that "terrorist" has ever had a benign meeting, but there are governments (and their media machines) which have labelled the opposition as terrorists, when such opposition doesn't really qualify for the term). And yes, I agree that some Palestinians are using terrorist tactics. And Colombian rebel groups use terrorist tactics when they go in and slaughter villages and kidnap huge groups of people. And...

Probably enough said.

Jake