So as to comply with Bonairetalk posting guidelines I will not go into too much detail regarding my complaint relating to the Management of the Capt. Don's dive operation. I will also refrain from using "hearsay" and make no direct mention of the bad language etc. I feel strongly enough however to have made detailed complaints to STINAPA, PADI, Captain Don's, Duiker Magazine (NL) and Diver magazine (UK)including photographic evidence of dangerous equipment rented to guests.

My complaint is simply that I found the dive operation management at this resort a complete shambles. They were unprofessional, rude, arrogant and dangerous. There is little regard for STINAPA guidelines or basic dive/health and safety regulations. The fact that the Manageress is related to Jack Chalk (General Manager of “Habitat”) and she employs her son as a dive master also means there is an obvious conflict of interest. "Jack does not tolerate rudeness to guests" I was told. I guess this doesn’t apply to his wife and stepson! This situation has lead to absolute megalomania!

This experience ruined my entire vacation. My wife felt threatened by the staff and was reduced to tears on several occasions. I was verbally abused (obscene and threatening) and resorted to threats of physical violence against one of the aforementioned staff members. I will never return to this resort and would urge you, and anyone else interested in diving, safe service and marine conservation, to do the same.

Hi Mick,

I am very sorry for you and your wife that you have had such a bad experience.
I just wonder, sorry for that, but why did you stay diving there ?? I think that I would check-out and try to find better somewhere else.....

Mike, I can find nothing in our posting rules that prohibit you from posting details about your experience as long as you are using your actual name. If you would care to elaborate, or post the pictures you mention, you may do so.
Be advised that I hope/suspect Jack Chalk will read this and respond.

As far as a conflict of interest when working with spouses or family members, this is not wall street trading, it's a dive resort. If you did not obtain satisfaction from talking to the manager, you should have worked your way up the food chain, and to another resort if necessary.

If an employee at a resort reduced my wife to tears, there would be hell to pay that day, and everybody who worked at such a resort would be aware of it too. Probably everybody on the island within a few hours.

One final note, packages are usually the sum of their parts; I don't prepay for diving.

Although I appreciate this operation is not a "democracy" the conflict of interest remains. If a Venezuelan/Cuban staff member told me to "f you" how long would they stay there? Do you think that Jack will fire Chris for that? Will he fire his wife for telling my wife "I hope you come back to Bonaire, just not here" and "Buddy dive is a good place to stay"? I guess not! Everybody in the resort was well aware of what happened and I guess my threat to "knock you out" went right round the Island in no time. Threatening behaviour is never acceptable, I have no excuse. I do feel however that I was pushed beyond any normal limits and the "hell", as you call it, was paid. TEXT REMOVED BY MODERATOR

My complaint, in detail with photo's, went to Jack two days ago and I await his reply. Perhaps he is too busy reading this forum to respond?

I only stayed as I thought the diving was a package, it wasn’t.

I have had two private messages, since posting, that are similar to my experience so I am happy not to be an isolated case.

I wont respond in the open forum further as I don’t want this legitimate complaint to turn into a bitching session. If you want to contact me by mail then feel free.

In the meantime I will continue to tell my story to as many people in the dive community as possible.

Sincerely,

Mick Dunham
Service Business Consultant
Amsterdam

How many times did you lay on the reef? That's the only thing I can imagine that would get Chris to be rude to anyone.

It might be smart for the rest of us to just sit on the sidelines until Jacks responds. If and when?

One side only so far.

I'd be interested in seeing the photos (unaltered, I expect) and perhaps hearing about the situation. As I said, the only time I've ever seen Chris lose his temper with any guests was when he had to drag them off the reef multiple times. As is his duty, by the way. There are a lot of people who think buying the dive package gives them carte-blanche to do whatever they want - I've seen it myself.

I have been going to Capt Don's for just shy of a decade. I've known Jack, Karen and Chris very well. Their integrity is without question. I would have to say that any diver who is bashing into the reef, damaging coral, or molesting the marine park could well expect some very strong words from Chris. Jack would manage more diplomacy since he is an older and wiser head but, when "push came to shove", Jack would be as unyielding on core issue of Reef care.

It's that integrity thing. I think backed into a corner between choosing the reef and choosing a guests continued patronage, they will choose the reef.

As for equipment, adherence to safe diving guidelines, proper dive mastering and operations, equipment quality, they are the standard that I measure other resorts by.

There is nothing at all wrong with a family business. Such family operations are very common throughout the dive industry. "Conflict of interest" That's just ranting nonsense to me.

Throughout Mick's rant, I hear some idea that Guests come above all else. Well, as a matter of fact, law, island culture, island ethics, that is just not how it is nor how it should be. Bonaire reefs are as beautiful as they are exactly because Guests are not allowed to do as they please. If you want to bash up a reef, go to Florida.

If I have one complaint with Capt Don's it is that they are not harsh enough on divers damaging the reef. Mick has not really done anything except to offer a narcissistic flame that anyone who ever visited Capt Dons knows to be false. Not one testable fact has been offered by Mick, just opinions without any underlying basis. Given how you write, I am pleased that you are not going to Bonaire, that way I'll never meet you.

So Mick, What dumb thing did you do or your wife do to provoke them so. Be Honest. I know you did it, because the only behavior that I have EVER seen from Chris that was ungracious in the least was provoked by egregious mistreatment of the reef. God I love that guy for that too. I hope he gave you hell and I'm sure he did seven fold.

I have a valid question. Why are some "assuming" that Mick and his wife were "laying all over the reef" and/or "damaging the reef"?
For those of you that are the "loyal fans of Capt. Don's Resort, and the defenders of the personnel that work there", may I suggest that not all people that have come in contact with Capt. Don's and the personnel, find them to be so considerate, courteous, kind, and patient.
To make the statement " that Mick and/or his wife must have provoked Jack, Karen, or Chris and backed them into a corner and integrity won out" is, at the very least, questionable.
While many of you appear to have had positive experiences with this place and personnel, your statements and messages must allow that perhaps others do not share your views based upon THEIR experiences. Just because they do not share your views, does not automatically make them lousy divers that are terrors of the underwater environment and rude people.
Please, a little consideration for others even when they embrace a different point of view.

ok...so i've gotten in a fight with everyone else i encountered today...

i agree with sandy on this one (but not about AA/AE;))

it seems to me that when someone may be off line a little, what you want to do is bring them back in line and not push them furthur out...dig?

whatever, it will still always be fun to read this stuff;)

I'm assuming it from years of visiting and dealing with Chris. He's about the most laid back person you'll ever meet - until someone (usually with a camera) drapes themselves all over the coral. I've seen him pull many people off the coral and still keep his temper... unless he has to do it every dive, and they express no remorse about their actions.

Years ago, Captain Don took a diver who was egregiously climbing all over the coral and when called on it, acted like he had every right to do so, as he'd paid good money to come to Bonaire.

Captain Don took him out of the water and accompanied him to the airport, where he put him on a plane out of there.

When talking about being a divemaster on Bonaire, Chris brings up this story often. I think it made a deep impression on him.

Think about it: would you rather have someone like Chris on the reef, or someone who puts the visitor first - damn the reef.

Mick has yet to come back with photos, everything he's said has been unsubstantiated.

I wonder if there are any other people lurking who were there at the time... I hope so - if at least one person other than Mick or his wife said any of these things were true, I'd stand down on this. My feeling though is that a different story might emerge...

One of the dumb things he did was hit a Habitat staffs car and try to drive away. As in Hit and Run. After being at the Bar watching a World Cup game. This is where Chris the staff member whose car was hit and and he got in to it.

Ladies and Gentlemen---------PLEASE!
This Bonaire Talk web site is for us ALL to use. We will ALL have differing opinions on a variety of subjects.
IF there was some act or acts that occurred on the property of Capt. Don's, or involving some personnel of Capt. Don's----------then common sense would give way to allowing the people/property involved, to solve the issue.
That being said, it still does not preclude us from being civil and allowing those, with view points of issues, that may not be our own, to use this web site as an "open forum".
Yes, Susan, I did hear the story, years ago, of Capt. Don taking the offending diver to the airport. However; I have witnessed the mentioned personnel at Capt. Don's being, shall we say, less than professional with people ( this particular incident had nothing to do with diving ) at the resort. The "guests" the resort personnel were chiding, were lovely people, asking a valid question, using a calm demeanor. Some may be surprised to find the number of "negative" reactions many tourists have had to Capt. Don's, and vow never to stay there again. However; this is not a " which resort/personnel can we bash" message. It is only a message to ask that we give others the same consideration we ask when we post messages of opposing views.
Sounds reasonable to me.

Sandy,
If Chris objected to a drunk driving off after hitting his car, it wasn't as a representative of Habitat, but as a "private citizen".

Mick was the one who turned it into a Habitat bash fest - and it turns out the issue was entirely unrelated to diving.

Interesting that he chooses to try to malign the entire dive operation, then beats a hasty retreat.

Well, truth will tell...

By the way... in no way have I been uncivil and I resent your saying I have.

Susan:
You have a PM.

Sorry I missed 3 words on the previous post Chris's car was not the one that was hit it was another staff members car.

My last sentence should have read.

This is where Chris AND THE OTHER staff member whose car was hit and and he got in to it.

Sandy,

In public response to your PM: I never said anyone should not post anything negative. I'm asking for substantiation. He's not come back to substantiate his claims, and now it sounds like there was a lot more he chose to edit out of the "whole" story.

People are free to post negative things here. And I'm free to disagree, and question it - especially since it's maligning a Dive Shop I have a lot of respect for, and people I like.

Geoffrey - Why would you want to direct someone to damage our Florida reefs...I don't get it man...we try to protect all the reefs of the world!!!!

I stand with Sandy on this. Over on the last crime thread I was referred to as a "troll" when I disagreed with a negative Bonaire post from someone who hadn't even been to the island yet. You post something negative here, don't start whining when someone disagree's with it - especially when it is someone who has expirience with subject being discussed.

I don't really know what you're talking about, Marcus. Who's whining?

My initial question ("How many times did you lay on the reef?") was based on my experience with diving at Habitat over the years, and with Chris as a divemaster. I've seen him drag people up off the bottom, and later on talk to them about it.

Most of the time, people get the message and try to control their bouyancy better - but sometimes, there's a few who think that by buying a dive package they've bought the right to do whatever they want on the reef and get huffy about it (usually, it's a "photographer").

I could see Chris get mad about that - he feels very protective about Bonaire's reefs.

Now, it turns out (as we learn from a 3rd party, Walt) that there was more to the story than was posted - a fender bender that somehow slipped Mick's mind.

I think Mick, since he's attacked the Habitat publicly HERE, should substantiate his claims HERE, with the photos he supposedly has to back up his statements.

It's not just rudeness he's asserting - but dangerous rental equipment. That is slanderous.

I was not really directing someone to damage florida reefs only that I think they would meet with less resistance to it than on Bonaire. I appologize to Florida for sending yet another miserable, uncaring tourist to your shores.

Another remedy is to bring in Chris Chalk and give him a State Troopers badge. He can straighten it all out in no time. :-)

Sandy,
I know exactly what you mean about Capt. Don's and I love them for it. I don't want them to change.

If you want to be treated like royalty, go to a big corporate resort on some other island. What I love about Bonaire is its open and honest feeling. sometimes pissed off is pissed off. You can not have open and honest and calm and collected all at once and all the time.

I also think that a web forum that was all lovey dovey and hugs and kisses all the time would be boring as hell.

When someone damages property, leaves without dealing with their mistake or treats the reef with disrespect I don't have a problem with them being called out for it.

Geoffrey:
Since you specifically addressed a response to me, please allow me to relate a few thoughts.
1. If you are a fan of Capt. Don's/wonderful.
2. If you are not, that is also OK .
3. If being treated like royalty, means people working at the resort are responsible, courteous, and do not attack guests with foul language, then yes, guests do like to be treated like royalty. You do not have to go to another island to get that treatment. I get it at Buddy Dive, two weeks at a time, twice a year, and have done so for several years. The same holds true for all the dive resorts I visit in many different parts of the world.
4. I think there is a big difference between the web forum being "lovey dovey and hugs and kisses", as you wrote, and people being civil to one another-------allowing for views, perhaps not their own.
5. What I find "boring" are those than condemn the experience of others, without knowing the pertinent facts.
6. I agree with you 100%, when someone damages property, they should immediately correct the mistake and take full responsibility for their actions.
Personally, I am certain that the people that lodged the original complaint and Capt. Don's will come to some sort of " meeting of the minds".
7. What I am uncertain about, and what I find perplexing is people using this open forum feel they must denegrate others in order to "defend", what they think is a good resort, idea, person, dive operation/whatever. For example; you could have written positive aspects of Capt. Don's resort/personnel without having to make negative comments regarding the complaint ( people) that started this entire issue. That is my point.
I wish you safe travels and good diving.

This is Rick Lesser- also my first posting on any chat board anywhere. I make it because I was standing in the lot behind the Capt Don's dive shop preparing to go with my family on a town pier dive (with Chris and Jenny) when Mr Dunham got into his truck and backed it into the truck parked across the lot behind him. Chris' comment was "We'll drive for you if you like", and that produced Dunham's profanity laden tirade about how he would beat the **** out of Chris. I heard no response from Chris, but my son Ricky was closer and perhaps heard more, though I really do not think there was a retort. I do not know whether Dunham had just come from the bar so to I will not impute anything in that regard, but I also was there (as was he) when England lost earlier that day in World Cup competition, and I think he took it much harder than I did (although I was wearing my England jersey at the time). I will also not comment as to the specifics of Dunham's other complaints as I was not directly involved. However, several others (guests and staff) witnessed the truck incident and their recollections are identical to mine. It is also significant that Dunham's complaint initially denied the auto accident, and further claimed the profanity was first directed at him by Chris, but it was completely the other way around. I also recall Jack Chalk was off island that day, but I am certain he will respond appropriately as to the other allegations.

Come on, admit it!!!! It gets fairly dull just hearing good stuff about Bonaire, I seem to observe the fact that most of you folks really get a kick out of this type thread. If not a I love Captain Dons, sorry you had a bad experience would be nuf said.

Rick - Welcome to BT.

We have been to Captain Don's many times and can in no way imagine Chris being unprofessional as insinuated by Mr Dunham. I am glad to say we will be back at Habitat in 8 weeks time and we look forward to diving with a great team.

Rick,

Welcome to BT, and thank you for posting. As I mentioned to Sandy, I have known Chris for many years, and the accusations rang so false that I had to speak up. I'm glad that you as an uninterested third party were able to set some things right.

I wonder: were you renting equipment from the dive shop? Did you find it dangerously substandard?

Sandy
Develop a skin. As far as threads go, this one has been pretty decent. I see you're relatively new here, but I've been here for a few years. It certainly can get bad, but this ain't one of 'em.

My question to Mick was based on my knowledge of Chris. I didn't outright call him a liar (though I'm beginning to think that may be the case), I asked him if he'd left out doing the ONE THING I could EVER imagine Chris losing his temper about. I don't think that was "denigrating" him or for that matter, leaping to the defense of Captain Don's. If was a legitimate question, and the first that came to mind when I saw his post. And I certainly never said he didn't have the right to his views. It's a public forum and I have the right to disagree with them, based on many years of experience with the dive shop and people involved.

If Buddy Dive dive operators see a guest smashing into the reef but don't say anything - shame on them. The reef has ALWAYS got to come first in Bonaire. If that means yelling at the guest who ignores the first, second and third attempt at getting their compliance, then THAT'S WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. I assume they treat you with respect because you treat their reef with respect, right?

Personally I do not agree that yelling at guests should can be tolerated at any time. For sure it will not bring you the result you want.
If that guest ignores the clearly stated Marine Park rules or any other resort rules, you inform him (or her) about it. If he (she) keeps on ignoring these rule(s) the dive professional (shop) should deny him (her) any further services and maybe even deny the access to that Marine Park through their facilities.
If the hit and run thing is indeed what triggered this all, simply call the police and let them handle this.
Just my two cents - check please.

Menno - of course you are right: they should not yell at the diver - though I think it's quite understandable if they do: people who do not respect the reef endanger their livelihood. I can understand a divemaster losing his temper, though - and I probably would cheer him on. But that's just me.

I wonder if the dive shops communicate with each other such that once a Marine Park Tag is revoked (which is I think the proper thing to do), no other dive shop will issue one to that diver during his/her stay on the island? A few "entitled" divers might finally get the message if that happened to them. Yes, they may never come back... but who cares?

Good Morning folks.

I have suspended Mick Dunham from BT for not following posting rules of the board, and for leaving out a huge and important piece of his story with Captain Dons. The auto accident is the answer to the puzzle. I thank Rick Lesser for his eyewitness account, and extend a warm greeting to him from the moderators.

Jack Chalk will not be responding on this thread, for his own reasons, that may become apparent with time. The mods will update the users when and if such information becomes available.

Let's all hope this is the last report of apparent soccer hooliganism we get from Bonaire.

Susan: My comment was meant to be a general statement. It was not intended for you specifically.

Susan:
I noticed you mentioned I was new to the board, and you are a veteran. To my way of thinking, "seniority" on the board should make you more, not less tolerant of others views.I would think veteran members of this board would be the ones that would let all the facts come out before "entering attack mode". If the people that started this topic experienced something negative, it is their place, not ours to comment. If Capt. Don's wants to "set the record straight, in their mind, they will do so. If by developing a "skin" you mean, I should be insensitive to messages that are obviously negative, whether I or others are the intended target, that will not happen.
To me, this board is about a place that some use for a vacation. It should contain material that is "helpful in all aspects" for those that are going to Bonaire. I really don't see the point of the "personal bashing" that does occur. If you feel strongly about something, speak to the positive points of what you are defending------hopefully without negative, personal comments.
I am certain, somewhere along the way, there will be a "meeting of the minds" of those involved in whatever unfortunate incident that occurred to spur this entire discussion.
Yes, you are correct, in that I personally, NEVER touch a reef, bottom, living or dead organism, and I attempt to teach others the same. My background is Biology/ ecology/environment. In all my times at Buddy Dive, I have seen them "dive by example to protect the reefs of Bonaire". Once in a while I have noticed a divemaster/or/instructor, getting the attention of someone underwater that was not doing as they should, but the divemaster was very professional. To my way of thinking, that is a good way to protect the reef.
So, in the interest of keeping Bonaire a vacation place, how about we talk about something of value------like good dive sites?
I wish you safe travels and good diving.

Hi All,

I have been following this board for some years, but never posted... until now.....

Maybe someone should ask themselves the following:

If Mr. Dunham did hit the car, causing damage, why was there no accident form filled in?

Maybe it was not what Chris said, but actually the tone of voice used. Let's remember Mr. Dunham states that the Chris was rude to his wife before the account and had reduced her to tears.

Town pier trips take place in the afternoon 16:00, the England game was at 11:00.. time enough to cool down I would expect.

Maybe Jenny, who really saw and heard everything can shed light on the issue.

As for dangerous dive operations, I have been the witness of smoking around the Nitrox filling station by staff member at Capt Dons myself.

The truth, may well lay in it middle.... funny how again a negative post has turned the poster into the villain..... What has happened to the good old American freedom of speech?

Well, that is my two bobs worth.
Be buoyant or be bend,

dive safe all,
Louise

There are three sides to every story. Yours, mine, and the truth.

Louise, welcome to BT. I thought I made it pretty clear that when Mick failed to include the fact that he backed his truck into another vehicle at the resort, he lost all credibility. Mick turned himself into a villain by withholding pertinent information that cast him in a bad light. Frankly, when you back into a stationary vehicle, you have made yourself an object of ridicule, you should be sheepish rather than belligerent, and take your lumps like a man (or woman). One moving vehicle = one at fault driver.

Freedom of speech is not allowed on Bonaire Talk, we have rules about what you can and cannot say. I suggest as a new user you read them. RULES

As for "Be buoyant or be bend," you win my "most disturbing signoff" award.

Thanks, I have read the rules now.

In big cities like London, Paris, Milan cars sometimes (mostly during parking operations) touch bumpers. This bumper "kissing" doesn't cause any damage but is sometimes needed when parking in and out of tight spaces.

Again, if damage was caused why was there no incident form filled in? I agree with you that the fault is always with the moving vehicle.

Having been the victim of a rear-ender myself, I can assure you that this was handled in an extremely civil matter.

Are you saying the Mr. Dunham backed into the parked vehicle on purpose? I had assumed it was an accident after which the exchange of words between Mr. Dunham and Chris took place.

Louise

Two bobs worth, you sound like a fellow Brit or an expat like Mr. Dunham.

But touching bumpers in London - as the norm I don't think so, I would be horrified if that happened to my car.

I also have known Chris for many years and he is a cool guy, I have NEVER known him act badly towards a guest and he has always been very clear but diplomatic when the occasion has required it.

Were you involved as I didn't see anyone mention it was just a bumper kiss and that an accident form was not submitted???

Oops and welcome to BT - again.

Just because someone is questioning Mick's post does not mean they are trying to turn him into a villian. Failure to question Mick's post, if that's what one really feels, falls into the political correctness category in my opinion. Mick's post could be complete B.S. for all we know. It is the right thing, in my judgement, for those with positive expiriences at CPT Don's to say that in rebuttal. To do otherwise would leave those with no Bonaire expirience with just one opinion of CPT Don's and would greatly reduce the value of Bonaire Talk as a forum on Bonaire.

Dear Brian,

I have just read through the thread and noticed that nobody any time mentioned actual damage to any of the trucks; assumed it was a "kissing" issue.. (not the norm, but occasional you are right). I don't think that anyone would actually do a hit-and-run as suggested in the thread... the island is too small for that.... would you not agree?

I am with Bruce on this.

I doubt anyone would have bothered if there was not any damage.

Were you involved as I didn't see anyone mention it was just a bumper kiss and that an accident form was not submitted???

Brian, you and I have just noticed the same detail but both come to a different conclusions.... I will admit, I watch too many detective shows on telly:-)

re-read Rick Lessers eye-witness story of what happened...

Jaysus, Sandy: this is NOT a place where we have to walk around on eggshells in order to not offend anyone.

Oh, saying I "attacked" Mick is offensive. So there.

He POSTED HERE. THAT means we have EVERY right to comment and to question. This is NOT a direct link to Captain Don's and Jack Chalk. This is a public board.

Yes, you're new. And you aren't about to change the way boards like this work just because you wish it be so. You aren't going to turn it into your little happy-happy, joy, joy PC playground - people here sometimes play rough and sometimes they're the kindest and most generous people on the face of the earth, and that's what makes this such a vibrant board.

Incidentally: in any of the times seeing Chris get upset about a diver on the reef, I've never seen him do or say anything in any way rude or disrespectful to that diver. He's spoken to them about it, yes. But always with courtesy. I have seen him very upset about it, but never angry and confrontational with the diver in question. I didn't mean in any of my posts to imply anything else other than that.

Louise or who ever you are, I can't see why you have such an interest unless you are a participant/witness in what happened.

Brian, one has to wonder about the "new-be's"?
Does sound fishy, no?

Hi Jerry

My troll sensor is beeping away. I apologise if this was pukka.

Susan..great posting.. I agree with your sentiment 100 per cent. We all have a right to our opinion (no matter how wrong that may appear to be), but personally what really gets me is when others try to lecture you or pontificate on the correct manners & protocol on HOW to post.

Susan:
I have three points to make, then I am off this thread. ENOUGH NEGATIVITY. No more responses.
1. You are correct, in that, I will not turn this into my personal PC playground. That was NEVER the intention! I have far, far too many matters, that are of greater importance in my life. To me, on a scale of 1-100, this board ranks around a minus 5.
2. I do know that some people need a board like this to " play rough". It is easy to " play rough" when you are simply an e-mail address in cyberspace. There seems to be limited responsibility and limited risk associated with this type of " rough play". Very courageous.
3. It would be interesting, to meet face to face, in person on Bonaire with some of these "rough play people", to see how thick their skin would be. I am sure many are" some of the kindest and most generous people on the face of the earth". It would be interesting---------
I am finished with this type of cyberspace "rough play". It is a lose, lose situation for all involved-------even for those that like to "play rough" and enjoy the negative aspects of interaction and communication.
I wish you safe travels, and good diving.

Sandy,

A whole lot of BT-ers have met me face-to-face, I'm this honest with everyone. I think some of them are even my friends.

People disagree sometimes, and it isn't "attacking" or "bashing" - it's disagreeing. It's allowed, and this would be a pretty boring place without an occasional discussion where everyone voiced their opinions.

You really do have a thin skin. This is the minor leagues compared to rec.scuba or any other scuba board.

amen

check please!!!

Susan, you said what I was going to say, that a LOT of BTers have met face to face and some have had disagreements and some have made lifelong friendships. Susan is very opinionated but that's NOT a bad thing! I am opinionated also (which is why we are friends....lol) and when someone bashes someone or something that I have personal knowledge of to the contrary, I feel a need to speak up.

Bonaire is very personal to many of us on BT. It isn't being mean to you, it's just a fact.

BT is what it is, period. Are some folks too rude? Yes. Are there trolls? Of course. But it is what it is.... take away from it what you will.

And posting that "I'm not going to post anymore after this post" is very childish. Or am I the only one who thinks that way? I will get the last word... then I'm outta here.

Don't forget your spare O-Rings!

OK, that is it for me. Too much "old boys club" going on here...

Love Bonaire, Love Diving.

I couldn't resist (hee hee)
I've re-read this thread at least 3 times... it's like a bad 70's sitcom I'm not sure that everyone even is addressing the person they intended to address - and I'm sure that Mr. Furley or Jack Tripper is going to pop out from behind the shower curtain at any moment

Here's my two cents (with inflation I should receive a dollar).... as a member of the population who has not been to Bonaire but so hopes to one day, I appreciate this board for the input from every point of view. I believe it is important for anyone who has had a negative experience to share it openly and honestly (that would include parking lot debacles). I also believe that it is equally important for those who have personal knowledge/experiences of the business in question to post.
Let's face it there is no one business, no matter how wonderful we may try to be, that will please all of the people all of the time. As a business owner, I want to know if someone is unhappy with my business and I appreciate the fact that so many of the proprietors seem to frequent this board.
That said, there are a LOT of people who leave what little manners & brain cells they have at home when they go on vacation (I live in an expensive resort town, remember).

I have to agree that for someone to post on this board (and every other board) and then not substantiate the complaint openly is just foul play. If the situation was truly that horrid and the concern really is to save the rest of us from peril, then continue with the conversation and give us the tools to make educated decisions as to the merit of your complaint.

Boom...BRAVO!

Louise & Sandy - I'll not get in a tit-for-tat with you privately - I respect this open forum and look forward to differing points of view.

In response to both of your PMs, there were 26 posts from Mr. Dunham's last post to the mods suspension. In my humble opinion, had Mr. Dunham given us the entire story with details from the start, rather than vague allegations this thread might have gone quite differently. Also, had Susan simply responded with her positive experiences with Capt. Don and Sandy stated her negative experiences we could have all gleaned what works for each of us (differing even then, I'm sure).

Thank you for saying that Boom about the PM's. I agree with you and I also prefer not to discuss this via private email. Anything that can be said to me in a private email, feel free to post it. Thanks!!

Well, a point was made that posting on these boards can give someone the feeling of anonymity, which is true. I could be anyone or anything... I could work for Capt Don for all you know (except that you've met me ).
PM's exacerbate that anonymity by eliminating the resource of the group for fact checking and rebuttal.
I'd much prefer to save my PM's for less controversial matters or with BTrs whom I have met
Thanks for the post Kelly.

Howdy again folks! Louise and the other new talkers, what you may not realize is that the messages on this board are saved for all time, and are internet searchable. This tends to make partisans hypersensitive to slurs against their island and/or favorite resort. It is a testament to the attraction of the island that it inspires such strong feelings. I have been to Bonaire many times, but my first trip I vowed never to return. So we live and learn. Please don't go away in response to passionate posters!

Fililo
(fight, live, love)

http://www.bmp.org/html/diving_bonaire.html

"ALL dive operations on Bonaire offer buoyancy classes free of charge"

they just never tell you.......

Mick has turned up on a UK message board as well.

http://www.diverforum.co.uk/talkforums/destinationstalk/index.shtml

Is this horse dead yet? Can we please stop beating it?

Interesting.... thank you for posting the link Brian. Seems like the same bs just a different venue.

regarding ... 'they just never tell you'

I have gone through many orientations at the Divi and each time the free buoyancy lessons were offered. So I can attest to at least one of the 'All dive operations'. Never say never.

Denise

I'm new to this board, and while I don't know what the whole issue was with Mick, I have to agree with his opinion on the dive operation, at least from our own experience. My husband and I went to Bonaire, stayed at Capt. Don's and dove with them. We will never again go back to that resort as long as the diver operator is the same.

We have been diving for several years. While my husband does take photographs, his buoyance skills are excellent, as is his respect for the reef and marine life and his desire to preserve them for everyone to enjoy. We, as a couple, usually ended up on a boat that also had a large group from a dive shop. Chris seemed to single my husband out for abuse, constantly pulling him around by his fins when he was nowhere close to touching anything. I frequently saw divers from the dive shop group kicking and breaking sponges. We watched saddened as broken sponges rolled down the reef. Chris saw this and said nothing. The group was paying him for extra attention and trips, and that seemed to make the difference between being allowed to destroy the reefs, and being abused. I even overheard one of the other dive masters, who complimented us on our buoyance skills and took us to town pier, tell Chris that he needed to improve his attitude. His mother at the dive shop was also extremely rude and snotty to us, even when we were checking in. We were made to feel that since we were only a couple, and not part of a large group, we were a waste of their time. We asked nothing from them and expected nothing except a little courtesy and respect, neither of which we got. They were awful.

As a side. We have English friends who are also seasoned divers with excellent skills. The woman, who has some back issues, has to be somewhat careful climbing the ladder to get back in to the boat. TEXT WHICH WAS HEARSAY DELETED BY MODERATOR

As long as the same people are there, we will never go back. It was by far the worst dive operation we have ever encountered.

See, that's what I was talking about... a specific thorough account. Thank you Cheryll for posting in such a matter-of-factual manner.
I'm sorry that your experience was so bad and appreciate your input.
I checked with our local dive shop and it was Capt Don's where they stayed and had a great time. They were a group of 14 but one of the couples has been back 3 times alone and still enjoyed their stay w/Capt Don's.

Thanks again for your input Cheryll - it is very helpful

Folks, I encourage all people to review our rules of posting and comply.

See: http://www.oldbonairetalk.com/newsgroup/messages/25/152184.html?1078174978

Tom (friend , buddy) , let me try to put my 2 euro cents worth of response to all of this mayhem , ... without getting kicked of the board , friend buddy.(and I REALLY do apologize for "caps-lock" shouting)

First to Mick Dunham : If , actually I mean "WHEN", someone threathened my wife on just ONE ocassion and bring her down into tears,ALL HELL would break lose . No excuse , no remorse.

Second to, well practically everybody else responding to this thread I guess: "Stop PICKING at anybody who had a bad experience trying to enjoy their holidays at Bonaire!!"

First reaction with a lot of people is to :"get their back hairs raised , raise their backs and hiss like a bunch of territorrial alleycats" , ENOUGH.

number One of my holidays destinations to do list is still a diving trip to Bonaire , regardless of where I am going to stay, I will give and expect : respect , kindness ,honesty, curiousity , warmth , empathy , gratitude and friendship.

Well , Tom , ( friend, buddy) , I think this was as much as my biggest rant so far , .....

jos van osnabrugge ( there is only one, so much for anonimity )

Tom,

Thank you for posting the link to the BonaireTalk rules. While many of us may remember seeing them before (like when we signed up), a friendly reminder (as you provided) is always helpful.

Have followed this thread with interest, but chose not to comment re any of the many sides.

Mark

Sir, that is in fact the first time that you have used your first name... Welcome Mark....

Jos, my friend your "rant" was polite which is exactly what I have come to expect from you. I too try to extend to and expect to receive from others the courtesies you mentioned. In my opinion honesty is the most important, the foundation that everything else is built upon.

Mark, you are most welcome

Freddie, Dr. Director has used his name in several recent post.

I want to share a quote from one of my favorite poets

---

quote:

Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper.
--Robert Frost

---

To the moderators.

In an earlier thread posted by Jorge who had all his valuables stolen at Capt Don's you demanded he send you a copy of the police report.

Giving all the same treatment on the this board, why do you not demand to see a collision damage report from Capt Don's staff member's truck which was hit/damaged by Mr. Dunham?

To Louise: To answer your question, because nobody filed a crime report on "the this board" about Mick's allegedly incompetent driving, and Mick denies the incident ever happened, even though we have an independent eyewitness.
Now how about you tell us about your connection to Mick?

Good question Seb!

I await Louise's reply with bated breath.

I have no relationship with anyone on this thread and take offense in your insinuation sir.

I have decided that I cannot standby in silence as this board yet again sweeps negative posts under the carpet.

I was in Bonaire 2 years ago, we went to Capt. Dons to dive one day and I myself saw smoking around the air filling station. I also found the general attitude towards guest divers not very friendly at all.

I am backing the underdog; hey I pick up strays and even try to rescue plants which others put out in the trash. Is that a crime?

As I have already mentioned, I have been reading this board for about 2 years now just never posted. People like Sandy who try to listen to "the other side" also never get a chance to be heard.

It seems that this board really is no more than an old boys club and a far cry from ...

"Have a question about Bonaire? Want to share your Bonaire experiences with others? Have an opinion about Bonaire? The BonaireTalk Newsgroup is the place to do all that and more! Want to see more of Bonaire? Then visit Bonaire WebCams for current images from Bonaire, weather and water temperature! "

....though I must add that the controversy is the exact reason I keep visiting Bonaire talk. The gossip and the intrigues....

Louise, so sad you took offense to Seb's and my curiosity. It just seems odd that both you and Mick have the same I.P. address. You might want to call the local police, it seems that Mick has been sneaking into your house or office and using your computer while you were away. Or, should Mr. Dunham be the one whose computer is being hijacked?

Goodbye!

Come on, Louise, confess! And you wonder why the users are wary when convenient posters like you pop up. You wouldn't be Louise Perot DUNHAM , would you? Or maybe you're Mick, getting in touch with his feminine side.

Good job detective Tom.

Louise...I would be careful when you make accusations about this forum being a good old boys club. That statement is fraught with excessively negative baggage and is just an inaccurate portrayal of this board. For one, I'm a woman and I am allowed to voice my opinion. The list goes on from there. I just hate it when people use analogies that do not apply.

Besides that, if you have been reading this board, you would know that there have been a lot of negative comments about Bonaire which do not get attacked. I myself made a rather negative comment about the resort I stayed at during my second trip to Bonaire. However, when I wrote my report I gave specific examples, not ramblings about the moderators and rules. I also included the good things as well to be fair and well balanced. It actually promoted a rather good discussion and through it we discovered that the place was going through a managerial change and that is why the service decreased dramatically during my second stay as opposed to my first stay at the same resort. It is in how you present yourself. If someone does not make sweeping generalizations with no fact, usually the conversation is carried out in a civilized manner. It is when the chat either begins without facts or digresses to unsubstantiated comments that there are serious problems and hackles are raised.

That still does not mean BT is a perfect place to have a discussion, but it is a start if you are honest up front. Heck I got slammed by a moderator once who owns a dive shop because I suggested to a college student to find a wetsuit he liked and then to order it from the cheapest place possible. It got pretty ugly. I was told I disgusted him, but too bad! That is what this board is about helping other people out. In that case the dive shop owner thought I was abusing dive shop staff and I can see that because I told the student to go try on wetsuits. However, from my point of view, having been a student myself when discovering diving, I realized how gosh awful expensive dive gear is and it honestly is way too over priced for someone not working a good paying full time job. That said...it did start a wonderful conversation about supporting your local dive shop and general economics behind diving. I could have reverted to name calling etc... But I and everyone else on that thread chose to be civilized and talked out facts... cost analysis, dive shop personnel, etc... It really turned out to be a good discussion.

These are just two examples to counter your statements about the board being "a far cry from..." I used these because I was personally involved with them. I can recall several other threads that I have read that were fairly negative but handled in a civilized and polite manner that did not require the involvement of the moderators. This one obviously did. The person who started this thread, when asked in PMs and on the thread to give examples and instances refused. What else can we do except try to thrash it out ourselves when the person refused to post what happened, or at least their version of what happened?

Well...I guess none of my comments were needed and it is too late to edit my post. Oh well. Good job moderators! Shame on you Mr. Same ISP.

(Message edited by jeanineclark on July 17, 2006)

Awesome Job Tom!
Thank you to you and Seb for monitoring this thread so diligently.

No problem Jeanine, the information in your post is not diminished by the prevaricators. Your explanation of how to properly post a report is excellent, and you address "Louise's" sexist, perjorative depiction of BT as being "old boy's club" admirably.

Shame on you, indeed. Now have the guts to come forward and tell us you lied to us all. Seems we were right in our skepticism. Ain't my first run around the BT track. ;)

People like YOU are what give BT a bad name, not folks like us who stick up for Bonaire. Negative posts aren't the issue here; it's lack of basic information that may portray Mr. D. in a negative light, and he has failed to mention that. If you are going to publicly bash people or businessess, at least give the accurate portrayal of what happened.

Again, I think we are owed an apology.
And I quote,
" I have no relationship with anyone on this thread and take offense in your insinuation sir. ".

Au contraire mon fraire...

Thank you, Tom and Seb!

Tribs, Very well said! Couldn't have said it better.

The second time my husband and I came to Bonaire together (he'd been a number of times before we met), we arrived with our stuff in these unwieldy Pelican cases that were heavy and didn't roll very well. We arrived in the afternoon (an AJ flight) were hot, tired, and just wanted to get to our room.

The pelican case I was dragging kept tipping sideways and falling - I was tired and struggling. Sherman, one of the divemasters, was sitting at Rum Runners having a beer after work, and saw this.

I'd only been there the one time previously, but he recognized us and ran over to help. He took my case and gave us a big hug welcome.

I will never forget this - he was off work but took the time to offer me this kindness.

Karen, (who used to work at Habitat as a divemaster) and I share a love of horses. She's taken me to her kunuku and we've been on trail rides together, where I've seen a part of the stark beauty of Bonaire you just can't see from a car.

All of the divemasters there have been equally generous, professional, helpful, and kind. Maybe because we don't have the attitude that they're the hired help to be abused with no recourse open to them?

Also on my second trip, I was a relatively new diver - under 50 dives - and we went to the Hilma Hooker with a dive boat. It was my first deep dive.

On the boat was a middle aged british couple. Let's call them Spike and Silky (because that's what they had hand-written on their fins. )

They imagined themselves ace photographers, and pushed their way into every situation they imagined was a "photo op".

My husband was looking through a part of the Hooker, and gestured me closer. It was the head - he thought it was amusing and wanted me to see it.

Well, as I moved towards him, either Spike or Silky DIVE BOMBED from above - they wanted to get that photo. I was bounced off the bottom like a basket ball. I was furious, as was Geoffrey (my husband), who let them know that he'd distribute their gear all over the bottom if they ever came near us again.

A little later, a divemaster found a seahorse. Everyone came around, and those with cameras were taking photos.

Again, I can't remember which of them it was (they're forever "SpikeAndSilky" in my mind) had a "range-finder" thingy mounted on their camera. Whichever it was had horrible bouyancy control, and noone else was able to get a photo after they knocked the seahorse into next week with the arm of that thing.

He wasn't there that day, but those are the kind of antics Chris reacts to...by pulling people away from the reef.

PS: The nitrox filling station is inside a walled enclosure. If someone was smoking there, the place would have blown up long ago.

It does seem the Bonaire Bashers try to pull this off every now and thin. But now we all know that we do "have to pay attention to that man / woman behind the curtain".

Mick / Louise, nice try! And I hear Aruba is nice.

I'm happy to see that mick's ip address was quietly removed from Tom's post. Posting his ip address was uncalled for, it would have been sufficient to post that both users were coming from the same ip address, instead of actually posting it.

The possible results of publicly posting a user's ip address, especially in a heated topic such as this are serious. If I felt that my ip address would be made public as a result of posting on bonairetalk, I would probably cease visiting the board, as I assume would a number of other tech-savvy members. There are a number of good reasons for logging the ip, and just as many reasons to not display it publicly.

Perhaps this is something that moderators should be informed is unacceptable?

Btw: good job moderators on the quick action taken to remove the ip from the post.

Years ago we had someone who was posting multiple "arguments" with himself on one thread by using different names but I noticed it all lead back to the same single party...this was a heated discussion over time-shares on Bonaire and the possibility of having one particular project built.....he was "outted" and did not return to the board.

He DID, however end up on Bonaire later on but not for very long....different topic, same principle....

Too many #1 postings on this thread...should have been a "red light" signal to all of us right away....lots of you did pick up on that and are very aware of first-time posters on our board, in general.

I wonder what the "real" story is behind all of this garbage...competitor? Someone with a grudge? Hmmmmm.

Will youse guys please stop kicking this dead mule.

I've had good and bad experiences with almost every hotel, restaurant, and dive vendor on Bonaire over the 20+ years that I’ve been a visitor.

"Youse"? Is that like "louse" ?

Sorry - I couldn't resist: I'm not a big fan of the usage (or should that be "yousage" ?)of "youse".

(Message edited by susanf on July 18, 2006)

Susan and Jon, I prefer "Yutes" like from the movie My Cousin Vinnie.. lol

Oh, I LOVE that movie!!

I think I have to protest on behalf of the Mule.

Jon

That's life but the internet allows people to moan online and that can cause an awful lot of damage.

Now THIS is entertainment. Who needs reality TV?

First let me bray that I resent being referred to as a mule....I am a Bonairean Donkey and darn proud too.
Secondly, who ever has been beating on said DONKEY thinking he was dead should be quite ashamed.
I was not dead, I was tranquilized and quite immobile. Seems the good folks at that Donkey Sanctuary thought my chosen grazing spot at the end of the airport run way was not well thought out.
So be it.
Now I am here at the Sanctuary and I awaken this morning to find my manhood as been how shall we bray, I bit altered?
And to learn I was also beaten by some ruffins as well in this thread.
The nerve of some folks!!

I hope I will not be castigated on my first post. I have about had it with the C word today.

This thread has caused enough trouble already, I am closing it now.