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Bonaire Talk: Local Items: Archives: Archives 2005 - 2006: Archives - 2005-07-17 to 2005-11-07: WEB-reponsibility
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harrie Cox (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #258) on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:11 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I have had problems with the delivery of WEB-electricity, shortly after the fire in the energy-plant beginning this year.
We had during short times very high voltages on the line, I could see on my Digital Voltage Meter (DVM) peaks of well over 160 Volts, what is supposed to be something around 110 to 120 Volts. Probably the peaks can have been even far over 160 Volts, I just got alarmed by the flashing of my lights, and it took some time to get my DVM connected.
The damage was quite big. Several bulbs burned out, (but you get used to that in Bonaire) also a 32-channel mixing panel and a fully-automatic Espresso-machine stopped working. Total damage about NAf. 10.000,--.
I made a complaint to the WEB. And didn't hear a thing at all. After reminding them every month, (by e-mail, I don't think they read them, and by fax), I got an answer a few days ago (nearly 9 months after the event).
Not completely to my surprise, the claim was rejected in a simple letter, referring to their general connection-terms. The only good thing was that they excused themselves for the late answer......

Careful reading of those connection-terms learns the following.
WEB can do whatever they want with the electricity-delivering, just not deliver, or deliver too high voltage, or too low voltage, the user is absolutely not entitled to ask for any compensation. By accepting the delivery-conditions, (BTW: I didn't get a copy of it when connecting), the user completely waives any right onto a claim. Which means that if WEB puts a too high voltage on the line, and my house burns down, I don't get any compensation from the WEB. I also don't get paid anything from the insurance company, because they say I have to claim with the WEB. So we are back to zero. The only thing I can do is pay the bills (extremely high bills, BTW), and pay them in time, because I get a very rough reminder already two days before the payment-term is over, threatening with disconnection, and high reconnection-costs.

This feels like very unfair. And I don't know what i can do to solve this.

I think in "normal" countries general connection-rules like these would never be accepted by any court. But Bonaire isn't "normal", and the WEB is a company managed by complete incapable people. I still think the fire in the plant in the beginning of this year was due to bad maintenance, and of course it is ridiculous that we still get our power from a battery of small, old rented generators, (do these get any maintenance?). We are just waiting for the next "Big-Bang", so we will have no power at all anymore.

Is there anybody on BT that had ever a claim to the WEB paid? How did you do this?
Are there BT'ers who know a way out of this ridiculous situation where we are completely dependant from an absolute unreliable power-supply?

Waiting for (positive) reactions.......


Harrie



 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Richter - NetTech (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #5634) on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 2:50 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Harrie,

I had a claim paid on Sept. 11, 2001 (another reason that day was memorable). It was the result of destroyed equipment thanks to a power line falling on the cable TV line and putting about 60V on my ground throughout the house (because of how interconnected my cable TV system was with all my electronic equipment). They paid close to full value on everything that burned out (like a TV, UPS, voltage regulators, switch boxes, etc.).

What they told you is ridiculous though. I would suggest making a big stink in the local newspapers and trying to get enough other people together to take legal action. That they can charge the ridiculously high rates that they do, and then not take any responsibility for their own negligence is just wrong.

We have exactly the opposite problem you do in Belnem - we typically have brown outs on one or more phases. Linda e-mailed me yesterday that she had to run an extension cord from the house to the washer in the separate building we have it it (which is on a different phase than the house for our ~110V) to get it to run properly because she was seeing 65V on that phase instead of the 100-108V we normally have (because of our whole house transformer to bring the 127V to a safe level for American appliances).

I will point out, though, that we do have UPSes and surge protectors on all sensitive electrical appliances around the house - it seems like that would have saved your equipment too.

At some point I plan on installing a natural power alternative at our house - lots of panels and maybe a windmill with a big honking gel battery, and use grid power only to supplement. With with the projected expense, I'd make back my money in about 3-4 years of WEB electricity bills at the current rates, I figure...

A while back WEB would cut power to anyone who was generating their own power for residential use, but I believe they were sued, and lost, and had to still provide power to the person who was supplementing with natural power generation.

Hey Harrie - I've got a project for you: start a "Natural Power Bonaire Stichting" to advise people on all this stuff and help get people more independent from WEB! :-)

Jake

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #358) on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 5:06 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

We got 2 times something paid by the WEB after problems ... we went next day with the broken equippment to the WEB, the payment came both times about 2 months later.
The last I heard, there are big changes supposed to come... there will be 3 power stations: one in Rincon and one somewhere outside Kralendijk ... and ... the 3rd one could be windmills provided by Cargill, set up behind the TWR buildings. The idea is, that Cargill would be running it and sell the power to WEB/the customers...

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Annette Roswell - The Last Bite Bakery (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #151) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 9:18 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I was compensated for items burned out. The WEB guys had been repairing pipes running up to my area and the silt ended up in my home pipes. They had to come out to fix it and in turn disconnected both grounds to my house. I had several items damaged burned out to the tune of about Nafl 5000. (thank goodness my husband saw the grounds were disconnected or it could have been a lot worse). After one year of weekly calls to the claims department and much yelling and hand motions - I was compensated about Nafl 3000 and the burned out items (which I kept) were picked up at my house and "disposed of".

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ann Phelan (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #1957) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 10:17 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I guess why our WEB bills are so high now is thanks to you guys..we are paying for your compensation...haa (joke)..

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Linda Richter - Artist Bonaire Creations (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2062) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 10:44 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Oh Harry!
Not the espresso machine. I loved that machine. It was my inspiration to get my automatic machine and I passed on my addiction to Seb as well.

On an odd note with power, I'm still having issues with one phase of our three phase power. Yesterday those circuits using the bad phase just did not work. The day before my regular light looked like a burning out candle, today it is at about half light. Today my American washer will turn on and wash the clothes but it doesn't have enough power to spin them dry. My dryer in the same room works off 220 and has worked perfectly the whole time.
We had an electrician over to check the washer and even bought a new one before we discovered the problem. I measured the outlet at 65 instead of a transformed 109 that it should be. My transformer brings it down from 127.

I talked Susan who lives in Hato last night and she is having the same problem. She has some lights at half power beside lights at full power.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #399) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 10:56 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

I should tell the rest of you that Harrie had just tended Sue Krenn's grave, so his karma should be powerful enough to ward off such an awful experience. Poor Harrie!! You are such a good person. Surely something wonderful will happen to you now to compensate.
And, Seb, I had no idea you were addicted to espresso. I didn't tell you where my machine lives. Hope you found it. :-)
Now, please all, what kind of gadget are you using to measure the voltage in your outlets and where can I get one?
Thanks!!
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Polopolus (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2419) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 12:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Harrie, sorry to hear about your gear getting smoked. The up side is they have a lot of nice new machines out now WholeLatteLoveand it sounds like you should be compensated. Have you given any thought to putting in a step down transformer like the Richters?

Linda, you could cobble up a simple adapter or just stick in a side box from the "good" 220 to a 109 outlet right next to it, and just replug when the third phase goes south. Some 220 outlets are also 110 due to the outlet configuration and what contacts are made when plugging in.

Tish, it's an electric meter.

Seems like living on Bonaire gets more expensive by the month.

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harrie Cox (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #259) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 2:32 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

OK Guys,

Thanks for all the encouraging words.

I had already decided to make a hell of a lot of noise, and phase one was Bonaire Talk, the rest to follow.
Many of my appliances are on 220V, when I moved to Bonaire I had decided to go for 220V because of the "rumour" that the 220V-connection is more stable. Actually, now I know how 220V is "made", I cannot imagine it could be more stable, because it is made of two phases of instable 110V. The new appliances from Europe are even designed for 240V, because Europe is changing in several years to 240V.
The problem I had was just during one day, some weeks after the big fire, when they were starting up the complex of Aggreko-units, and there must have been made some mistakes or so.

All the ideas of UPS-systems and step-down-transformers will not work easily for me, I would have to make too many changes in my electrical wiring. And what the hell, I pay for a 120V-connection, so I have the right to get 120V and not 160V. And I pay a lot!

Of course I have the most sensitive equipment running through surge-protectors, and my espresso-machine (Yes Linda, THAT machine) was protected through a transformer, but the peak was simply too high. The mixing-panel was not protected, because I was just installing it for a one-day use during my birthday party.

Except for burnt light-bulbs I haven't had many problems before, just that one occasion.

Hey Jake, I am also thinking for longer time of natural power, but the consequences of getting really cut-off from the WEB is too big. The information you have about people that sued the WEB, and got reconnected is important. Do you (or somebody else) know who had this experience?
The idea of starting a natural-power-consultancy is a good one, but there are still doubts of the cooperation of WEB... For instance, I heard WEB is sending people with a solar-hot-water-panel a letter that they will get disconnected from the water-supply, and they make suggestions that the Belnem-water-problems could have been caused by those panels...... (Let's laugh loud!!!!) To get natural power a little bit more profitable it is necessary to get the possibility to resell superfluous capacity back to the WEB. In the Netherlands the power-producing companies were obligated to accept that (for low tariffs of course), some years ago.
BTW solar electricity will not be easy and cheap. I have some experience with solar-power in my campervan in Europe, it is not this easy, you need huge battery-sets, and converters to bring 12V up to 220 (or 110) again. And really sometimes it is too cloudy here to get enough solar power. Don't forget that the life-time of batteries in the tropics is shorter then in colder climates. Wind-energy looks more profitable, but would you like to have such an ugly windmill besides of your house, (or even worse besides the house of your neighbour, who is doing the natural-energy-job) ?
And of course, we are spoiled, I don't want to miss my fridge, ice-cubes-machine and airco, I miss my Espresso-machine already.....(LOL)

What I know about the power-plans for the future is that WEB is actually thinking of leaving the Hato-area, although the standard-problem will be: Who's gonna pay for that, because WEB says they were at Hato first, long before the first citizens came to live there. I also heard that the windmills-plan was turned down because too expensive, and they still need to have the full generator-capacity to tide over the days of wind-silence.

Some other additional information, in the reject-letter I got from WEB, they were referring to events occured on 07 Februari, while my claim was after events on the 14th of April. So this means that they even didn't read my letters carefully. Even not after 6 months.......

So fellow-BT'ers let's join and make a big fist against WEB. I don't know how at the moment, but we will find ways to put pressure on those incapable managers.

Harrie

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Richter - NetTech (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #5640) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 3:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Harrie,

I don't know who it was that sued WEB and won - it may have been a local business, and not an individual.

I would suggest checking with Mini Kroon (Rent-O-Fun Rentals - she also used to sell solar panels, and maybe still does) as well as with Carlene Petersen (attorney) and even BONHATA.

Jake

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #400) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 6:02 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Okay, I won't ask what an electric meter looks like, but just where do I get one.
Thanks!
And you give 'em heck, Harrie! If others have gotten paid, surely they will pay you eventually. And they have certainly underestimated your determination. :-)
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Myers (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #174) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:57 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I don't know if you have an electronics store on Bonaire. Maybe ask Jake Richter; he should know where to get one. Here is a link to a cheap one from the states.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=22-218

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jake Richter - NetTech (Supreme BonaireTalker - Post #5641) on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 8:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tish,

You can get a "multimeter" at any Radio Shack. The digital ones start at around $20 or so. Have someone bring one down for you (I could have done it earlier today, but the Radio Shacks near me here in DC are closed, and I fly out before they open in the morning).

Jake

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2180) on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 12:13 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tish,

Please have someone give you some instructions about using the multimeter before you go at it! They are safe and easy to use but putting the probes on prongs and bare wires and in socket holes puts you much closer to electric shock than just using appliances. No smoked BTer, please. :–)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tish (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #401) on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:42 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks, Ron and Jake.
And Glen, I give you my word I will get instructions from Linda and Jake (who are my neighbors) before venturing into the weird world of measuring shifting Bonaire voltages. Thanks!
Tish

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harrie Cox (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #261) on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:13 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Tish:

I can give you instructions upon using the Voltmeter too, and I will. BTW: Radio Shack is the US-supplier for those things, but also on Bonaire you can easily get them (Benzers), but Radio Shack is probably a lot cheaper. Don't buy an expensive one, not necessary for your needs. Just be sure you can measure up to 250 V (AC), that is all you need. Get a digital one, because these are more accurate, and easier to read.

And another thing: measuring voltages is not a weird world at all.......


Harrie

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harrie Cox (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #262) on Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:17 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Jake:

it is a pity, you don't know who sued WEB for the right to be connected to the WEB when producing own power. This is so important for me. It is also one of the main "Bonaire-problems": lots of rumours, and no reliable and correct information.....
If there is someone else who knows, please, please, please give a sign.

Harrie

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wally and Eva (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #864) on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 7:59 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Are the court house papers kept on BON and are they public?
"old courthouse blood hound asking"

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Polopolus (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2429) on Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 11:04 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah Harrie, I bet you have long pants AND shoes, so you can get in. Plus you know the language. How many lawyers are there on Bonaire anyway?

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Reem (Extraordinary BonaireTalker - Post #2183) on Monday, October 3, 2005 - 1:07 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

Harrie,

I would bet that the Bonaire newspapers would 'remember' the case and have the info you need. Also any business on island that sells alternative electric generation gear. And Michael G. has a rather encyclopedic memory of things Bonaire. And likely a few other people.

Of course, WEB remembers but might not want to tell officially. :–)

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brigitte Kley - Coco Palm Garden (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #359) on Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 6:31 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

I can not remember any details, too long ago.. end ,80s I think .... perhaps ask Babs from the Dive Inn, there was a wind mill there, never used because of the WEB .... I guess Babs would know

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harrie Cox (Experienced BonaireTalker - Post #265) on Friday, October 7, 2005 - 11:43 pm:     Edit PostPrint Post

There was an interesting article in The “Antilliaans Dagblad” today about the stuff we were talking about.
It is an interview with Stijn Janssen, the “Interim-Directeur” (substitute-general manager) of WEB, the Water and Energy Company of Bonaire. (I even didn’t know we had an “Interim” here, now). About one whole page they spent on his stories, and I’ll try to tell the highlights.

He tells us that the energy-prices will go down with 20% in 18 months, due to the use of windmills, use of pressed sea-algae for firing the generators, and pumping of cold water from the deep-sea, to cool big airco-units, for instance from hotels. Besides of these ideas he thinks about changing from light diesel-fuel to heavy diesel-fuel, what can be purchased cheaper, mainly due to political reasons, (our direct contacts with Venezuela, in stead of buying from the refinery in Curacao or else).
Some more details:
The pressed sea-algae is quite revolutionary. Mr. Janssen says that a breeding-ground of approximately 2 square km (less then 1 square mile) would be enough for the energy-consumption of the generators. This looks very attractive, but 2 sq. Km is very little and I would love to see the results of tests in this field. I haven’t heard of any big-scale project on this idea up to yet.
He tells us that the windmills are becoming commercially attractive because of the high fuel-prices, and that is absolutely true. There are two windmills on Bonaire, not working at the moment, because of high maintenance-costs. (I think I have even seen more windmills here, not working.) Mr. Janssen thinks of 10 windmills, placed at Lagun, Seru Largo, Sorobon and Hato. Quite difficult from the story we heard here that speaks about positioning of windmills at the Salt Company. I think 10 huge windmills could cover quite an important part of Bonaire’s needs for electrical power, but still we need to have back-up-generators for when wind fails, also mr. Janssen says.
The story of pumping cold water from deep sea is discussed so often, what I know is that the energy-consumption for the pumps is making this not commercially attractive, and becomes perhaps interesting in the far-away-future, when we generate electrical power from natural sources in big quantities.
Of course the story of the heavy diesel-fuel is already spoken about so often, but this is mainly a political story, it can bring lower energy-costs for the short term, until Curacao realises what is happening, and they will look for compensation for the lost Diesel-income.
Mr. Janssen refers also to the use of rapeseed-oil, in Europe, for Diesel-cars. It is done, but in a very premature stage. It looks it will have a good future.

So, it is good that there is at least someone at the WEB, really thinking about the future.

And now the figures.
Mr Janssen says he has estimated the total costs for his plans at about 63,000,000 NAfl. (I have no idea, it looks impressive, just as the plans, but actually it is not a real big amount, It could easily be 126,000,000, especially while there has to be tested and developed so much. (What about a sea-algae-collecting and pressing-machine, where can you buy it? And what about the huge pipes for pumping the water from deep-sea? And the effects for the Biological life around us, when pumping that cold water up, and the dropping of the burnt sea-algae, where?
He also talks about the need of the WEB to find NAfl. 20,000,000 to replace the waterdistribution-network (think about the “Belnem-water-problem”, and the debt of NAfl. 21,000,000 they are looking at, at the moment.

When looking at the picture of mr. Janssen, he is looking like a nice guy, but I cannot see his feet, but I am sure they are not on the floor. We are talking about over NAfl 100,000,000. Where do we get the money from? If any investor would put his money into these ideas, he would want to have a R.O.I. (Return on Investment) of something like, let’s say, 10%, which means that Bonaire should have to pay NAf. 10,000,000 per year to cover that investment. We are here with 10,000 people, let’s say 3,000 families, which means that every family would have to pay, only for the return of the investment some NAfl. 3,300 per year. (and that is more than the average family pays at this moment, for their whole power-needs, with the ridiculous high energy-prices). And believe me, this hi-tech equipment will need quite a lot of service and care, and the people doing that service, want to have at least “peanut-butter” on their bread too.
Of course, there will be a contribution from the tourists too, but, even when coming from the USA, they are no idiots too. (This is meant as a joke, sorry guys.)


It is late already, and I stop my story-telling now, my first thing to do is to try to get some money from the WEB, for my damaged equipment, (see early in this thread, and I am not quite successful yet), but I really hope to meet this mr. Janssen soon, and talk with him about the reality-content of his stories.
For now, I am looking at what is happening the coming 18 months, but I think there will only be action from the rented Aggreko-units, and nothing else…..

Harrie

 

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathalie (BonaireTalker - Post #100) on Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 9:53 am:     Edit PostPrint Post

Harrie, thanks for the translation of the WEB article. Even when reporting bad news you give us a laugh or two.

 


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